Photo by Chris Yipp

Transcript

Yeo

I'm just personally more interested when someone is a person of color. I just want to know what the story is, because there's always a story. It's more interesting too than ... Just it's more interesting to me, because automatically I'm like, "I'm a person of color too, so maybe we can relate." Then you do, you find the link.

Jay Ooi

What’s it like being an Asian artist in Australia, and how can we create a more diverse music industry?

Hello and welcome to Shoes Off, stories about Asian Australian culture. I’m Jay Ooi.

Today I’m bringing you the story of an Asian Australian musician and producer who goes by Yeo. Born in Brisbane to Malaysian Chinese parents and spending much of his childhood in Geelong Victoria before moving back to Brisbane, he was one of only a few Asians in his community. We sat down together at a pub just before he was playing a gig.

Yeo

I found myself with Asian Australians, always. 

Chris, the guy that I was talking about before, he's a civil engineer, he was my best Geelong friend, and it was like we ran into each other as two of the only Asian kids in a very white community, and then we found others when we went to Mandarin class.

We all hung out on weekends and even though I hated going to Mandarin class, it was a chance to be with people like me and that's really important. I wish I saw the importance back then.

Jay Ooi

Why do you think that's important?

Yeo

It's how you feel normal, how you feel normal. Because I just remember being at primary school, being at high school and being like, I'm not an international student, so I don't hang out with them, and there's maybe one other Asian in my class. Everyone else is white and they're all joking about things that I don't get and they laugh at my food

Jay Ooi

Despite growing up in predominantly white communities, Yeo’s parents were fairly typically Chinese and pushed him towards all those Asian professions, but he found his way into music regardless.

Yeo

I definitely felt a little bit of shame not getting good grades in things like math and chemistry, because one of the implied paths that I should take, from my parents, was to become a pharmacist. Because it was like, that I wasn't going to get the grades to be a lawyer, I wasn't going to get the grades to be a doctor, but I could maybe get the grades to be a pharmacist, I could get into pharmaceuticals. I couldn't even do that, I couldn't even do that. Music was the only one that was straight A's across the board.

I think I didn't really have anything else to be proud off and I wanted to work on a project where I could show people and be like, "This is me, this is what I'm good at." At school I was ... My parents were always like, "You need to get good grades in the science and math and English subjects," and I was like, "I'm not very good at those."

Then I wasn't any good at sport, because I'm just a smaller human being... Yeah, so music was like, because it's subjective, it's an easy way to be, "This is art, this is my art and this is all me and I'm proud of it." I guess, a long answer short, yeah.

Jay Ooi

What did your parents think when you started making music and trying to I guess live off it a bit?

Yeo

At first they were, well at first they had slightly different reactions. Mum was like, "Get a real job." In a loving way, she was like, "Yeah, I appreciate that you're doing what you love, but you need to have a back-up job, something that's secure." Dad was like, "Come and make music for me in the church." I was like, "No, no thanks dad."

Jay Ooi

So what was Yeo’s back up?

Yeo

I studied audiology, which is the health side of hearing, so prescribing hearing aids, helping to diagnose and treat children with ear problems or senior citizens or anyone with, anyone who's just got trouble hearing and who's basically ... But it was, I just remember, I did a year of a two years Masters course and got to the end of the first year and I just remember being at class falling asleep all the time.

I don't know whether it was a post lunch dip or whatever, but was like, "The truth is I'm fucking bored, I'm just really bored by this." I think, if you graduate, as a graduate your salary is like 60K straight up, if you can find a job. That's really good. Even that wasn't enough to entice me, as a young person, to finish a degree that I had halfway gotten through.

I couldn't even do just one more year to have that qualification, because I detested it so much. I respect it, but I couldn't see myself doing it all.

Jay Ooi

That isn't a back-up any more?

Yeo

There's no back-up, no.

Jay Ooi

I love what you mentioned earlier, that your a grad student earning 60K and that's a lot of money, and then a little bit of digression here, but I grew up amongst all these really, really bright Asian kids who mostly ended up as doctors or lawyers or in the finance field, and I'm that odd one who didn't end up there. I would try to bring them down to earth, and they're like, "100K is not a lot of money," and I'm like, "Are you for real?" I don't know if you feel this sort of ... Do you have other Asians in your life that are these high achievers?

Yeo

Oh yeah.

Jay Ooi

Do you feel a little bit of, not high achieving next to them?

Yeo

Yeah, I definitely feel that, yeah, and it's not ... Sometimes it's more than just a ... Sometimes it is purely a monetary thing, but yeah, it's really interesting, you do come across these people in your life and they'll speak of things right, because they work in, and they work in, they're an accountant for some really big firm. They make a very strong six figure salary and it's like they can afford all this stuff.

They're cool, they act cool, then you're still really this cool Asian, but you earn so much more than me. I often think, it's like, "Would my parents be happier if I did that?" I don't know, but that's a very dangerous train of thought I feel to get on.

I do just have an innate pride now about what I do, and the fact that I'm grinding it out is part of that too

Jay Ooi

So despite pursuing his music, Yeo definitely isn’t a high achiever by typical Chinese standards.

maybe it comes back to Asian parents wanting ... Well, viewing success in terms of a stable, dependable career ... What did you have to do I guess to shift, or do you see yourself as successful?

Yeo

No, not at all. No, I feel like I am ... I'm in debt, I'm scraping the bottom of the barrel, the last release, it hasn't been doing as well as the one before, and I'm reaching the twilight of my, what feels like the twilight of my career pretty much, as a 33 year old

If anything it's even harder for women and harder ... I could complain and it's like, but I still get to do what I do, so it makes me really happy. 

Do you know what, I really understand the reasoning for pushing kids to go for those roles.

Jay Ooi

You do understand? Yeah.

Yeo

Yeah, I do get it. I get ... I mean I don't, I won't succumb to it or bend to it, but

They want us to be successful and often that means financially successful and it's like, "I get that, sorry, I want to be creative instead." That's the beast that I need to feed. Not the money thing.

Jay Ooi

Yeo started making music in his late teens but has found it a bit of a struggle in Australia as a minority in a predominantly white industry.

How do you describe your music?

Yeo

This is a really good, that's a very simple question, but I have a very complex answer.

Jay Ooi

Okay.

Yeo

Right now, I mean it's always changed, so right now I'm writing a lot of R&B and pop. I mean I've always listened to soul music and neo soul and that kind of stuff. No-one else that I ever play it to is like, "That's R&B." Not straight off the bat. When I tell them that that's what I want it to be, they might agree with me or whatever. Or they might call it a low priority or something. It's like, there's so many Asians that can do really good R&B and you just don't want to call it that.

It's like, why? I don't know, it reeks of some weird racial thing where it's like only black people can make R&B and only black people can make hip hop. They made it, the invented it, so they definitely can, but music is to be shared by everybody. Without a little bit of appropriation and sharing and all this stuff, nothing new comes forward.

Jay Ooi

has your Asian-ness impacted or interacted with your music in any way?

Yeo

I guess it's led me to try and support Asian people more, because I found it a real struggle, there's very little representation out there, so the dude that I always go back to, growing up, is Quan from Regurgitator he's the one dude that as an Asian indie muso dude, I saw him and his band and I was like, I loved his songs and I just fanned out so hard. Then I met him and it was like, he's a real chill guy. How did I get to that?

Jay Ooi

That was you growing up and there's still you feel a lack of representation in the music industry?

Yeo

I think here, yeah. You go to Asia and there's so much crossover, there's Thai artists who have connections in Japan and audiences are, it's just mixed. If you go to Singapore, there's just so much crossover with China and Malaysia and Indonesia and yeah, it's ... But it never comes here, it's always, it just stays there.

It's getting a little better, but I just, it was just so long, even for such a long time, when you would see the musicians that get exported from Australia, they're always literally very white girls and guys, right, and you would never see a black person. That's changed now, right, I feel like, and it's for the better. Indigenous artists are a priority, I think that's really important.

Jay Ooi

how white is the music industry?

Yeo

Yeah, pretty white. Yeah, I'll answer that. No, I'm not scared of it. Yeah, it is in this country, it is in this country. I'm sure it's different elsewhere.

it's really just a mirror. I think all art industries are a mirror of what people consume.

I can totally appreciate if people want to argue against what I'm about to say, but I feel like the people who make the decisions in my industry, they're generally white.

All of a sudden it's like, the people who have power are of one colour, so they would generally favour the people that look like them. Which is what we would do if we were in positions of power as well. I think that's why there is less representation, right.

That being said, I don't really like to complain too much

I feel like there is a community that I'm a part of that has just generated itself and we all support each other and that's exciting, it's fun, it's comfortable for the first time in a long time.

Jay Ooi

So yes, Yeo thinks the decision makers in the music industry are predominantly white, but it’s not the only factor contributing to a lack of Asian artists.

Yeo

There's a lot of factors that lead to the lack of representation, specifically in this country. There's things like our parents and their attitudes and our upbringing, so a lot of us get pushed out of the creative scene for the sense of stability, right.

Then there's also, just like the lack of motivation, if you don't see yourself on TV screens and hearing yourself on radio, people that look like you for example. Then you don't have that inner drive to be inspired, it's like, yeah, Kwan's one of them, Dougie from ... There's very ... Chong Lim, the keyboard player in John Farnham's band, it's very, very limited.

Jay Ooi

So artists from Asia don’t seem to make it big or mainstream here in Australia, and combined with the lack of representation in our own media, it’s kind of tough for Asians growing up here to aspire to be musicians.

Yeah, but I think It's interesting that you mentioned that, because Asian parents push kids away from a creative path, I'd like to say that we have self decisions and control, but in the end, if you're a teenager and you're like, "Hey, I want to play in a band," and mum's like, "No," you're not going to do it.

Yeo

Go practice the ... Yeah, yeah.

Jay Ooi

That actually does impact whether you end up being in a band and playing music for people.

Yeo

I feel like it does. Do you feel like it does too?

Jay Ooi

I do yeah.

Yeo

Because it's like, it's conditioning, it's like anything, you get no reward if you don't do what your parents say, so you just do what your parents say and then you get to have McDonald's or whatever, right. Yeah, it's conditioning.

Jay Ooi

Yes, unfortunately a lot of us have been conditioned to not pursue a creative career, but for those who have like Yeo, there are others out there too.

Yeo

I'm just personally more interested when someone is a person of colour. I just want to know what the story is, because there's always a story. It's more interesting too than ... Just it's more interesting to me, because automatically I'm like, "I'm a person of colour too, so maybe we can relate." Then you do, you find the link. That's not to say that I don't link with straight Anglo Aussie musos too, I have a lot in common with them because we both grew up in the same geographical location.

Yeah, just on a like a very small part of me, it's like I want to shift things in a different direction for this country and for people of colour and that's everyone not just Asians. If I can keep just nudging things that way without being too abrasive or blowing things out of the water, I'm going to try.

Jay

In what ways, other ways do you do that?

Yeo

When we run events, Viv, my manager and I work a lot together doing that kind of stuff. When we're curating we always have diversity in mind. Once again, some people would be like, "That's not a meritocracy," and it's like, well it isn't to begin with, so ... I just want to call some shots for once. Then it's nice when our super diverse crowd comes through and that's really fun. You feel at home, you don't feel like the other for once. Yeah, it's real nice.

Jay Ooi

Yes Yeo is consciously choosing to promote people of colour and choosing to work with people of colour. And every little step helps.

In what ways can average punters like me support a more diverse industry?

Yeo

Look, you have to actively seek it out.

Australian hip hop is not just Hilltop and Illy and Phrase, it's there's, in Sydney you have Manu Crooks and Anfa Rose who are making really great R&B. In Melbourne you've got Hancoq, you've got Nasty Mars, you've got ... In Brisbane you've got Jesswar.

There's just ... And it's all yeah, it's ... I think it's some of the best urban music we've got, but yeah, you've got to find it, you've got to look, because these artist don't get the leg up that a lot of platforms give automatically to white artists without knowing, yeah, all this stuff can be very incendiary when you say it out loud, but that's honestly how I feel.

No-one should be scared to be creative. A lot of people are like, "How do you feel about the internet making it easier for artists to get out there?" I'm like, "It's great." "How do you feel about technology improving so that anyone can be a producer now?" I think it's great, because music is to be shared and to be made by anyone who wants to make it. It's good for your brain, yeah, it's something to be shared.

Jay Ooi

Yeo has even started to talk about some of these issues in his music. I asked him about his song The Comments.

Yeo

There's a lot of inane chat that happens in the comment section of the internet, discussion areas, social media specifically. People just think that their opinions are more important than they actually are, and then sometimes they also forget that things that they say can be very hurtful or in fact bullying in fact.

I mean we've all seen examples of that. Then, I don't know, there's also a bit of a vehicle in that song for pointing out a few of the problematic things that are issues that our country is dealing with, or was dealing with at the time.

Jay Ooi

Yeah, the things that I think I picked up on is, obviously race, is there gay marriage?

Yeo

Yeah, 100%.

Jay Ooi

With that little reference to jagged edge?

Yeo

Yeah, 100%.

Jay Ooi

Aboriginal violence?

Yeo

Yeah, about 1000%, yeah, all of those things, yeah. I'm glad that comes through, because it's like, I didn't want to be to obvious but I wanted to say what I wanted to say, yeah.

Jay Ooi

I don't know what to ask about those things, because they're there. Is there anything you wanted to expand on any of those?

Yeo

Well, just be aware of them, be aware of those things. They are all things that we should be aware of as Australians, because it's part of our history, it's part of ... Part of our way of life. If we want to be good people that are accepting of all people, then equality is so important. I guess that's what they all ... I think there's a line about the concentration camp vibe at like Nauru and the detention centers that Australia is in charge of. It's like, what are we doing? There's so much space in this country, bring them here and then we'll sort it out.

I get that's a really complex thing and I'm not an expert, but all these things we have to be aware of. There’s no human that deserves something more than another one, when it comes to just basic rights. Do you want to move? I'm happy to.

Jay Ooi

Another of Yeo’s songs Restless has some political undertones too.

Can you tell me what that's about for you?

Yeo

White fragility mostly. It's a bit of a fun post, because I have heaps of white friends and it's like, no-one ever really wants to be told that without even meaning to, they are disparaging or not aware of the inequalities that exist. It's the criticism and no-one likes being criticized really. I mean I don't like it when some tells me I've done something wrong, I just want to go cry in my room.

Yeah, I think it's pretty straightforward, I was just really angry and I needed to put it somewhere and that song was what it was. I mean, to put it in a real, to give you a real example of what that's based on, it's like sometimes when people say dumb racist stuff to you, you're so shocked you don't even know how to reply. That used to keep me up at night, and it still will in the future, to the point where I can't sleep because I'm like, "I should have said this, I should have said that." That's literally what the song is about.

Jay Ooi

What are some of the dumb racist stuff that you've gotten recently?

Yeo

There's so many that it's becomes just a blur. I remember I went back to visit my parents a year or two ago in Brisbane, and I got on the bus with, they use this thing called a Merit Card up there, which is like an Opal Card here, My Key in Melbourne, and the bus driver was just like, "You have to tap it." Speaking like I didn't know, I didn't grow up in Brisbane, I don't know how to use a touch card for public transport. This, we probably invented it, it probably came from us.

Jay Ooi

So true.

Yeo

Yeah, so that kind of thing, I don't know. I was in Perth once and I had these people screaming Samsung at me, and I'm like, "I'm not even Korean, so what's the fucking deal here? Why are you yelling a TV brand at me?"

Jay Ooi

you talk about an invisible glue that still holds your mouth shut.

Yeo

Yeah.

Jay Ooi

What is this invisible glue?

Yeo

I don't know. I don't know what it is. I think that's part of the shock I was talking about before. Because even though you're offended and shocked and possibly even angry, you still don't want to offend someone else by being like, "You're a fucking racist, you're a racist," or, "You shouldn't say that." It's like all of a sudden the air is tense and you don't want to make it any tenser, any more tense.

Yeah, I also think, yeah, so sometimes it's shock and sometimes it's like, you're just not used to getting in somebody else's grill and telling them they're wrong. Because growing up, that's not, I wasn't raised to ever do that. I was raised to be happy with myself, to stay out of everyone's way, be quiet and be less of, don't be a nuisance. Just mind your personal space, and yeah.

Jay Ooi

Yeah, that's very, very Chinese.

Yeo

That's so Chinese.

Jay Ooi

And another of his lines?

What's this future?

Yeo

Well, change is happening, it's shifting, good, and we're finding each other. People like you and me we're finding each other and having these really important conversations, so that generations after us have a resource, have encouragement, have inspiration. Proper shifts like this take forever, so we probably won't see it.

The fact that we were aware of it and we tried to push it along a little bit is very good. I do believe in it, I believe it's important and I think it's moving. It's really important, it's a worldwide thing and it's cool.

It's that movement as a future I believe in.

Jay Ooi

You can listen to Restless, The Comments as well as a bunch of other songs on Yeo’s latest album Recovery Channel, available on Spotify, Apple Music and a bunch of other platforms, and you can find him on social media @snackswithyeo, that’s snacks with Y-E-O. 

This episode of Shoes Off was written, produced and edited by me Jay Ooi.

Special thanks to Yeo for taking the time to chat, his manager Viv for organising it and their label for letting me use some of his music.

Links to Yeo’s music and social media will be in the show notes at shoesoff.net, and if you’re keen to discover some Aussie music by people of colour, Yeo has put together a little playlist that you can check out in the show notes as well.

You can find me at facebook.com/shoesoffau or on instagram @shoesoffau

If you liked Shoes Off please subscribe, you can find it wherever you get your podcasts, and if you have a friend that might need a little creative boost, give this episode a share.

Thanks, and catch you next episode.

Yeo

My tertiary education preferences were music, music production. No, no, it was, pharmacy, music, music production and food science or hotel management or something like that where it's like those last two, you do those to improve your score so you can bridge to a degree like pharmacy. That just indicates how badly I did at school, apart from music. I mean it took a while to get there, but I'm so glad that I stuck with it.  

Links

Yeo’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/snackswithyeo/

Yeo’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/snackswithyeo

Yeo’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/snackswithyeo

Yeo’s website: https://www.snackswithyeo.com/

Listen to Recovery Channel: https://ditto.fm/yeo-recoverychannel

Spotify playlist by Yeo featuring Aussie people of colour musicians: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/0wUsydoaMg9YIlVojeAvIU?si=jaAkdXt6QlC-2qhLhglZnA