Jun 11

Jun 11 S02E05 - Australia's not-so-secret cash cow

Transcript

Jay Ooi

Hey podcast listeners, a quick note that the interviews and stories in today’s episode were mostly recorded before the COVID-19 pandemic, so I realise that the key issues might be slightly different as of today, but nevertheless, there’s still a lot to talk about. Okay, on with the show.

International students. We love to hate them. But what problems do they face in Australia?

Fiona S. P.

So, I think a lot of them don't engage very much with locals. I think that's a natural response to culture shock, to be perfectly honest.

Jay Ooi

What’s with the specific stigma around Chinese international students?

Jane Park

I've taught a lot of international students. The fact that we say international students and we both know we're talking about Asian international students is also quite telling. Right?

Jay Ooi

And what do they bring us?

Ying Jie Guo

So, in other words, Australian universities have come to a point where they can't really survive without the international intake.

Jay Ooi

Hello and welcome to Shoes Off, stories about Asian Australian culture. I’m Jay Ooi.

Those of us who went to university in Australia probably had encounters with international students, and we probably have opinions about them. They stick together, their English is terrible, they don’t understand the assignment given, I do not want to be in a group project with them. But we probably never said these things out loud to them, or each other. So let’s dig into it.

Jay Ooi

Why did you choose Australia or how did you come to Australia in particular?

Tatala

I went to a Chinese university and before that, I took Chinese examination and

Tatala

I could choose from Australia or Canada and my parents said, " Oh, Australia is closer. Go to Australia" and that's why.

Jay Ooi

That’s Tatala, an international student and vlogger who grew up in Beijing.

Tatala

So I went to the University of Sydney for my bachelor degree. I majored in gender studies and theatre performance studies for my bachelor of arts degree. Now, I'm currently studying master of PR and advertising at the University of New South Wales.

Jay Ooi

Unlike a lot of Chinese people, Tatala got into a university in Beijing before moving to Australia to study.

Tatala

I worked really hard to get in the Chinese university, I went. So I didn't think about going overseas before. But my parents are thinking that, "Okay, we need to prepare. If you fail the exam, that's possible. We need to do something else and do you want to go abroad or anything?" I was like, "Okay, I'll consider about that."

Jay Ooi

So what made Tatala choose to come here in the end? Well she wanted to make the most of her time at university.

Tatala

So I wanted to learn something that I can't learn in China.

Tatala

So I was looking at the major list. I feel like gender is the thing that I need to learn. For one thing, it's quite a weird major in China and we don't really have something called gender studies. So I think that's a good thing. Another reason is that I was really interested in sex education, which is not very developed in China. So I feel like if I study gender, I may be able to work in the field of sex education and gender equality. I think China needs people like that, and I think I can be one to help.

Jay Ooi

So coming to Australia meant Tatala could study something that doesn’t really exist back home. And for many international students, it’s an opportunity to get a higher education they wouldn’t have been able to get otherwise.

Ying Jie Guo

It is still a very prestigious thing to be able to go to an overseas university in China - this is part of the social distinction game.

Jay Ooi

That’s Professor Ying Jie Guo, chair of the Chinese Studies department at the University of Sydney.

Ying Jie Guo

I explain many things, probably too simplistically in terms of the population. So many people compete for limited resources. Not everybody, not even half of the students can get into a good university. So, it's much easier to get into a good overseas university, and if you can afford it or not. So, there are students who come here to study, but I think it is part of that competition for resources, including social prestige. And you do have a large number of parents and grandparents who can afford to send their children overseas.

Jay Ooi

Yes Australia provides the opportunity for a higher education for many international students - over 300,000 in fact.

Ying Jie Guo

Certainly, in terms of income, about 40% of our incomes comes from international students. And, out of that, of the international student population, about 75% are from Mainland China.

Ying Jie Guo

It's very, very high. So, in other words, Australian universities have come to a point where they can't really survive without the international intake.

Jay Ooi

Yes our universities are very reliant on the money that international students bring in - for example, a commerce degree starting this year at the University of Sydney will set you back $44,000 just for one year’s worth of course fees, not including textbook costs, administration fees, visas, application fees... And this is for full fee international students, of course. And with USyd and UNSW having more than 20% of their student population from China, that’s a big chunk of money coming from Chinese students. So why are Chinese students coming here? Well like Tatala mentioned, we’re a little closer to home than the US and Canada. Another reason?

Ying Jie Guo

The universities, our universities are of very high quality, generally, high standards, and the standards are quite even. This is something that is an Australian advantage. When you go to the UK or US, you might have very good universities, as you know, you might have universities which are not so good. So, it's not easy for Chinese parents or students to figure out, to work out. Of course, everybody has heard of Harvard or Stanford, but not everybody can get in.

Ying Jie Guo

We have some advantages here. And, Australia has a very, very good reputation, certainly, in terms of the quality of teaching, learning, and also in terms of safety. So that's one of the reasons why our international intake has been growing a lot.

Jay Ooi

So yes our universities are good - it’s easier to get a good education in Australia at most of our universities than say the US. But okay, we have all these Chinese international students coming to Australia to get an education they probably aren’t able to get back home, and it’s bringing in a lot of money to our universities. But they’re arriving in a different country, with a different language and a different culture of learning. Life can be pretty difficult.

Jane Park

I've taught a lot of international students. The fact that we say international students and we both know we're talking about Asian international students is also quite telling. Right?

Jay Ooi

Yes, yes.

Jay Ooi

This is Dr Jane Park, a senior lecturer of gender and culture studies at the University of Sydney, and yes she grew up in the states.

Jane Park

And so the things that I notice are they tend to stick together. Language ability isn't always so high.

Jay Ooi

Yes language is a big barrier when it comes to learning in the Australian academic world, and it’s something Tatala felt too.

Jay Ooi

How was your English before you came to Australia?

Tatala

I was quite good before I came to Australia compared to other Chinese students in my class. But when I came to Australia, I feel I couldn't understand my professor.

Tatala

In China we learn about writing and reading, and we do some basic listening. But actually the listening and speaking part are more important .So I was struggling with speaking and listening a lot when I first came here.

Jay Ooi

Tatala did sit and pass our IELTS test which is an english language assessment, but she still struggled with english in Australia.

Tatala

I think the biggest problem is the accent because in the IELTs class in our textbook in China are either American or British, but here, Australia has special accents that I'm not familiar with.

Tatala

But we have our tutors marked upon our participation, so you have to talk in the class to get the mark. That's why I started to talk. But after that I feel like, because you know, they are... Most of the classmates I had in my former majors are local students because it's not that popular to major. So my opinion as an Asian or as a Chinese is very valuable in the class. When I feel that everybody wants to learn from my opinion because my opinion is unique and it's alien from their opinions, I feel like, Oh, I really want to tell you something. I feel the passion of talking.

Tatala

But sometimes I really feel that I want to say something, but I didn't know how to, and I don't know how to make it accurate. I don't know how to make my language beautiful. That's a very big problem for me, which I think is hard to improve. And obviously in China I can use my mother tongue, so things are easier.

Ying Jie Guo

Many people are reluctant to mingle with local students because of the language barrier. And that's one thing.

Ying Jie Guo

International students get into this vicious circle, because they are shy, their English is not good, and then makes the more ... Discouraged them from interacting with local students. And the locals, a lot of local students have no reason. They don't see a purpose for interacting with international students.

Jay Ooi

It’s a vicious circle in two ways - on the one hand, the shy students who don’t have good english are less likely to practice their english and therefore aren’t going to improve their language, but at the same time, us local students don’t really want to interact with them either, so they get less opportunity to practice their english.

Jane Park

They're seen as cash cows. They're seen as not really, like they should be grateful to be here and they're going to come and they're going to take the knowledge and they're going to go back. I think that's it.

Jay Ooi

Yeah. I even remember it from my time at UTS, I'm totally guilty of this, of being like, “I don't want to be in a group with international students.”

Jane Park

Right. So, this is what a lot of Asian-Australian students have told me. It happens in America as well. I did it too. Like where you just do not want to be associated with the international students or the FOB students. You speak your English louder and with like even a more of an ocker accent even or whatever. To be like, “I'm not them.” I think that that is tragic that we do that because we all migrated here.

Jane Park

I find Australian culture to not be terribly welcoming. I think individuals can be lovely, but I think culturally Australia lacks a welcoming culture of hospitality, which is huge in Asia.

Jay Ooi

So yes, it’s not just language, it’s us and the way we feel, as well as the social and cultural differences that prevents more integration. Even us Asian Australians feel the need to distinguish ourselves from the international Asians. “I’m not one of them, because I grew up here.”

Ying Jie Guo

It's the cultural affinity, or cultural difference. So, people come from Germany, from France, from Australia, find it easier to talk to each other, because a lot of the cultural values ... There's a knowledge pool, there's a lot of things that you know, and you mentioned it, "Oh." So, we know that. You have a similar ... Australians will tell you differently, I'm sure. You have a similar sense of humor. A sense of humor is very, very important here, as you know. And humor is something terribly, terribly hard to learn. It took me ages to join in the laugh.

Ying Jie Guo

But, if you don't have that sense of humor, if you don't get it, when people tell a joke, if you don't get it, you are almost automatically ostracized from that group. You can't join in. And people try to join in. You laugh because other people are laughing. But, you can join in, but you're not really part of that group.

Jay Ooi

I asked Tatala if she ever felt segregated because of where she came from.

Jay Ooi

And did you ever get a sense that the local Australians, they didn't want to make friends with international students, or they wanted to stay with each other? Did it feel exclusive at all?

Tatala

I do feel a bit, especially in my theater major, our department was really small, so basically everybody knows each other. And when I got to uni I feel like I'm quite separated from everybody else, and that was when I felt really bad. And also the classes were immersive and you have to talk a lot, you have to chat, and you have to joke together. And that's when I feel quite exclusive.

Tatala

And I think people tend to talk to people from their hometown, and that's not a choice, that's kind of what ... How do you say? Can you give me a word? I need a word.

Jay Ooi

Yeah, I think I know what you're saying. It's sort of like the idea that like attracts like, and you go to be with people that are most similar to you.

Tatala

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And it's obviously easier to speak Chinese to people. That's our mother tongue.

Fiona S. P.

Also, very much that whole, "Oh, the Asians all stick together," and I thought to myself, "Yeah, but how welcoming are you to them?"

Jay Ooi

Thanks Fiona Swee Lin Price, a cross cultural trainer and writer who worked at the International House at one of our universities and was the go-to person for a lot of international student issues.

Fiona S. P.

I mean I just saw very much what was not happening, why there was very little cross cultural socializing going on in a residential college specifically set up for that. There weren't a lot of people actually socializing across the cultural boundaries, and I thought when I was in China, when the news got out that there was a native English speaker in the international student dormitory, I had a continual stream of Chinese students banging on my door wanting to be friends with me and practice English. And I thought, "Does that ever happen in Australia? No, it doesn't." Almost never.

Jay

Why do you think that doesn't happen?

Fiona S. P.

Oh, there's a few reasons. One is that Australians are not generally motivated to learn languages, especially not terribly, terribly difficult ones like Chinese. "Oh, I couldn't possibly study that." Also part because of the dominance of English globally. "Why do we need to bother? They can learn English. In fact, if they’re in Australia they should be speaking English," is often the mindset.

Jay Ooi

Yes, part of the problem is us local students. We expect people to become more like us, instead of trying to learn more about them.

Fiona S. P.

So, I think a lot of them don't engage very much with locals. I think that's a natural response to culture shock, to be perfectly honest. And I also think there's not a lot coming from Australians being motivated to socialise with international students either, unless they are studying Chinese, or they're specifically interested in traveling around Asia. Unless they have a specific motivation, by and large, your average Anglo Australian student isn't that interested. It's too hard when you’re in your late teens to talk to someone across a cultural barrier. I mean, what are you going to talk to them about? And they look different and they have these funny accents, and I can't relate to them. And there's so many people available who I can relate to, why would I bother? That's very much the issue, I think.

Jay Ooi

And there’s one other issue that definitely doesn’t get enough attention.

Jane Park

I have had conversations with the few Asian female international students who've had quite a lot of sexualised racism and they don't know where to turn to.

Jay Ooi

What sort of things do they talk about?

Jane Park

Like getting hit on by their professors, getting raped.

Jay Ooi

A 2017 survey of more than 30,000 students by the Human Rights Commission found one in five international students had been sexually harassed at their university, and about 5 per cent of international students had experienced sexual assault. 5%. Sexual assault. Just let that number sink in.

Jay Ooi

Whoa.

Jane Park

Yeah.

Jay Ooi

Okay.

Jane Park

Yeah.

Jay Ooi

That is serious.

Jane Park

Harassment is very…yeah. It's like another level. It happens to White women, but it's on a whole different level if you're an Asian woman and there are all sorts of stereotypes about us anyway. Then if you don't have the language abilities and if you're coming from a different culture and to have these predatory White men take advantage of you, that's traumatising. That's happening to many, many, many Asian women. That is horrible actually, so there's that.

Jay Ooi

Coupled with an Aussie culture of trying to score the girl at almost whatever the cost, and a Chinese culture of saving face where it’s almost rude to say no and report the issue, and you’ve got the perfect storm for many unreported incidents, and a lot of long term trauma.

But, coming to Australia to study is not all bad.

Tatala

in China when I major in something, I have to like dedicate all of my time in that thing. Say I can choose some electives but they are still closely related to my major. That's why I quit actually because I feel like I only learn about this one thing and I need more.

Tatala

In Australia, I have my majors and they have to certain credits about my majors, but there is still a lot of credits that I can use to learn something else. For example, I learned French and I learned nutrition. They have no relation to my majors but I'm still working on those things.

Jay Ooi

And what don't you miss about home?

Tatala

I think it's the relationship between me and my classmates, because I don't think that you have to make friends in class, and here in Australia, you talk to your classmates in class, and after that you are free, but in China you have to kind of have to keep the relationship. I mean, we're classmates, so we're friends. We need to hand out. And that's quite a pressure for me. And that's part of culture, I think.

Jay Ooi

Yeah. So I guess in China it'd be more you maintain good relationships for the sake of, I guess, maybe face and for potential future opportunities. Is that right?

Tatala

Yeah, exactly.

Jay Ooi

So Tatala does enjoy a lot of aspects of Australian university life - the freedom to hang out with whoever you want and to study more broadly. But we’re still left with a lot of problems. You’ve got the language barrier, the different ways of learning, and the social and cultural barriers. What is being done about this, or what can we do about this?

Jay

What resources are available to help them, I guess, understand the Australian culture and Australia teaching, Australian university?

Ying Jie Guo

Yeah, that's something we talk a lot about in the school, and in the faculty in the university. We've been trying to do more.

Ying Jie Guo

There is a lot of help in terms of helping students to catch up with their English, because English is really the foundation of many, many things. If they can't write essays, if they can't take notes, and then, if they can't understand what the lecturer is saying, then the quality of their learning will be compromised.

Ying Jie Guo

We've been talking about all sorts of initiatives to make their life easier, and make sure that they can take a good vantage of this opportunity. And, from my point of view, because of what I've learned living in Australia, I always encourage international students, certainly the students from the PRC that, "Well, now that you are here, why not try to find out more about Australia and Australians?”

Ying Jie Guo

I have run film sessions, film evenings on campus. So, I bring Chinese students and local students, and we can have a chat, watch the film, have a discussion. Of course, there's a Q&A. It's an opportunity for people to intermingle and try to, just to mix and get to know each other, and get people talking together.

Ying Jie Guo

And, we need to do more of these things. What really works, nobody reads knows, but doing something to help is better than do nothing, I suppose.

Jay Ooi

So universities do have programs in place to help international students do their best work. I asked Tatala what should universities do help out more.

Tatala

That's really hard because I think universities are doing a lot to get us involved, but it's still very hard for us to step out and to get involved. There are a lot of activities, there are a lot of events that universities hold to connect international students and local students, but whenever you say that these are international students and these are local students, we feel the difference. I feel like if you treat us as international students, you treat us specially, then we're not the same. So one opinion I have is to ... So one suggestion I have is to ignore the difference of us. You just say, "Hey everybody, if you want to come, just come along." You don't say that both international students and local students are welcome. That feels weird.

Fiona S. P.

And there is resentment towards international students among Australian students. Not all, but there is certainly some resentment, the feeling their courses are being dumbed down to cater to these foreign students who can barely speak English. “This is not fair on us.” And that's a theme I get quite often, because I now work with lecturers, and I work with academics who are teaching the mixed class, and they say they find it very difficult to cater to the needs of both. And I feel under pressure to cater more to the international students because the international students are bringing in the bacon. And a lot of the students don't like that.

Jay

Yeah. How do they do with that, or what have you seen happens?

Fiona S. P.

That's probably what I've tried to come up ... I have strategies for them to do that. And one of the things I'm quite big on, which is perhaps not something which we hear much about is, "Look. Inclusion means including the local students, meeting their needs as well as the international students' needs. Here are some strategies which will enable you to support the international students without actually detracting from the teaching that you're giving to your domestic students." So I try and find strategies which will be inclusive and also enables the domestic students to engage with and learn from the international students, which often does not happen in your standard Australian classroom practice. So I try and encourage practices which help them engage with each other, because they're not gaining very much cross culturally unless they do.

Fiona S. P.

The more structured the activity you give your students, the better it is for a multicultural group. I saw this when I was working at International House. They'd hold parties. And if you have an unstructured party, as in you have some music, you have some food, you have an alcohol, and then one end of the room, so students who are Muslim are going to be offended. And then just throw it around in the room, have fun, people would gravitate towards people they felt comfortable with to talk to, which generally was people from their own culture or similar. The Aussies would socialise with the Europeans and the Americans, and the Asians would all socialise together. Not absolutely, but largely. Largely, maybe 10% crossover.

Fiona S. P.

Give them party games, structured activities and party games, then you've got, instead of having to work on your internal rules of how to engage and make conversation and behave socially, you've got external rules to follow. Then everybody can see, they're very visible, and then everyone follows the rules and you don't have to draw on your different internal rules to engage with each other.

Fiona S. P.

So in the classroom, that's when I tell them. I said, "Don't say, 'Yeah, get into groups of five and talk about marketing.'" The way you'd approach marketing, having a conversation in China and the way to approach it in Australia, totally different, almost irreconcilable, language barriers and mutual suspicion ... And academics are always complaining. "It just doesn't work. They just won't cooperate with each other." I said, "Okay, don't do that. Instead, give them the specific list. Say, 'Pair up with someone who's not from the same culture as you and ask each other these four questions.'"

Fiona S. P.

That's a very structured activity, and then they've got to report back on what their partner says. That also helps to humanise each other.

Jay Ooi

So more structure, activities, support systems when it comes to language - that’s what universities and university groups are doing and can do to help integrate the students more. But what about us? Especially us Asian Australians? I asked Jane Park about this.

Jay Ooi

What about for people who have that feeling where they don't want to be in a group of internationals? They don't associate with them and maybe they're realising that it's a little bit wrong. What should we do, is my answer is my question as students?

Jane Park

As Asian-Australian students?

Jay Ooi

Yeah.

Jane Park

You're an Asian-Australian student and you see all these international students together and they're like kind of ghettoised or ghettoising themselves or whatever, what do you do? I guess one thing you could do is go over and talk to them. That's something, instead of just hanging out with the White students. But then again, I don't want to be like, “Asians have to hang out together.” That's horrible. You do what you do. Everybody, go date somebody White. Hang out, it's not that right. But it's just like, and I'm going to speak from personal experience. I know that when I did that, when I was younger, a lot of it was because I had it very, very deep internalised shame about my Asianness, which is natural if you grow up as a minority in a White dominant country where you're made to feel different.

Jane Park

Whether it's explicit racism or kind of implicit racism, it would be weird if you didn't feel shame. I think one of the ways to try to overcome that shame is to try to, I'm going to sound like a PSA or something now, but try to understand your roots. It's not about talking to the international Asian students, it's also talking to your parents. You don't have to learn the language, but hey, if you do, that's another thing to put on your CV. It does make a huge difference, I think.

Jay Ooi

Yes, a lot of the reasons why we probably don’t want to associate with Chinese international students is that we already feel a bit misplaced, and don’t want to feel further misplaced in our own country. There’s this asian side to us that we’re trying to suppress, and mingling with a Chinese student who actually grew up in China? That’s doesn’t feel cool. But it’s only because we don’t feel cool with our own cultural background. It’s us projecting our fears and insecurities onto them.

Tatala

Just don't think about our differences and think about me as an individual, not as a Chinese, or an Asian, or international students.

Jay Ooi

If we can put aside our hangups with our own culture, hopefully we can see they’re just people, like you and me.

That’s Asian Australians and international students.

This episode of Shoes Off was written, produced and edited by me Jay Ooi.

Special thanks to all our guests Jane Park, Ying Jie Guo, Fiona Price and Tatala. You can check out Tatala’s vlogs where she talks about life in Australia on bilibili which is like the Chinese YouTube.

In the show notes for this episode at shoesoff.net you can find the sources for anything quoted today as well as a documentary about sexual abuse in Aussie universities made by Al-Jazeera.

There was lots I couldn’t cover in this episode, so if there’s something I missed, please let me know, you can reach me @shoesoffau on facebook and instagram.

If you liked Shoes Off please subscribe, you can find it wherever you get your podcasts, or head to shoesoff.net

And if you have a friend who would resonate with what you’ve heard today, please share this episode with them.

Thanks, and catch you next episode.

Jay Ooi

I don't know if you feel this, but this is definitely how I felt growing up in Australia that there was a sense that the white Australians, they didn't feel as good associating with Asian people in general. So it's better for them to associate with an Asian Australian, but to associate with an international Chinese student for them would be like that's too foreign. Whereas associating with a German international student is great because they're white.

Tatala

Yeah. I feel that as well. And I once wrote an essay about it, about making friends thing, because I learned gender studies and I did a lot of topics on race, and class, and stuff. My finding was Asian people can never be Australians because we look different. If you are, for example, a German and your children grow up in Australia, becomes Australian because they look Australian. But maybe your grandpa, or your grandpa's grandpa are Chinese. But now it's been several generations in Australia, but you're still Asians because we look different. And that's the only thing I notice.