Transcript

Jay Ooi

Hey there, just a quick note that this episode contains some discussion around suicide and abusive relationships. Okay, on with the show. 

Rebecca Lim

because they've been conditioned, I guess, like Pavlov's dogs, "I have to do it like this. If I don't do it like this, something will happen." Yeah, there's that whole thing with women. It's almost like an invisible leash. And I don't know why. And I really, really dislike that.

Jay Ooi

How do we tackle these sorts of traditional family structures, and how can diverse literature make a difference?

Hello and welcome to Shoes Off, stories about Asian Australian culture. I’m Jay Ooi.

Parental obedience. Disassociating with shamed people. Proud, controlling husbands. These seem to be common features amongst a lot of Asian families, particularly those based on Confucian values and ideas. This is certainly something that author Rebecca Lim experienced. Rebecca’s family moved from Singapore to country Queensland before settling in Melbourne where she mostly grew up, and her latest book is a departure from her usual fantasy fiction, focussing on the story of one Chinese Australian girl in primary school.

Jay Ooi

how much of a reader were you growing up?

Rebecca Lim

I was a massive reader growing up. I mean, the whole reason I sort of became a sort of fantasy geek and sci-fi geek was because I think I started reading absolutely everything I could find in the local public library and the school library. And then I thought to myself, after a few years, I think I was about nine or 10, I thought, "None of these kids in these books have lives anything like my life. Like, I can't sneak out of my house at night and solve a mystery. I can't cruise around in my big brother's car and just go wherever I like." And I just found them really frustrating. At that age, you can't articulate what's wrong with them or with you, but you just read them and go, "They're all the same. And yet, they're not the same as anything I'm sort of living at the moment."

Jay Ooi

I don’t know if you noticed, I certainly didn’t until chatting to Rebecca, but pretty much all the literature we read in school growing up was very very white. I remember reading “Looking for Alibrandi” and having it described as a kind of ethnic or migrant story book because it centred an Italian Australian, but that was pretty much the extent of the diversity we got growing up. And for Rebecca, this was a bit of a turn off.

Jay Ooi

Rebecca certainly didn’t see herself reflected in the literature she was reading as a child, but you’d think now that Rebecca’s taking her daughter to school that things might have changed.

Rebecca Lim

But I think it was a big shock for me, because when I went to that school over 30 years ago, it was more white people than Asian people. And so, at that time, you would expect the book list to look like that. But then, 35 years later, when the student population is like over 50% Asian or South Asian, to still get a reading list where the only so-called Asian story on the list is written by a white lady is really frustrating. And the top three books are those books, which you had to be force fed as a kid as well.

Jay Ooi

Seeing this lack of diverse narratives prompted Rebecca to write her latest book, Tiger Daughter. Rebecca says her aim with the book is to create empathy with the reader, showing a different side of Australia that we don’t usually read about. And part of that starts with the name of our main character Wen.

Jay Ooi

She's trying to explain how to pronounce her name. And I guess, for me personally, I grew up with a name that doesn't translate into English well, and that's what I used most of my life growing up, and it wasn't Jay. And I was just wondering from your perspective, how much did you see people struggling to pronounce Chinese or foreign names growing up? Or where did this idea come from? Was it intentional to give her a name that ... Yeah.

Rebecca Lim

It was intentional, because I guess in a lot of books, the Chinese character is ... If they're in there at all, they're the sidekick, right? And they've usually got a really easy to pronounce name, like Amy Wong, right? But I think for a lot of migrant children especially, they're coming here with the one name they were given by their parents. And in this case, Wen is culture. So, the dad wanted to have a son, so he gave the daughter a son's name. And so, it's like cultured strength, or something like that. And I found it really interesting, actually, because I deliberately did give them more Chinese names than you would in a mainstream kid's book.

Jay Ooi

So already from the get go, you have the reader having to tackle a name they probably can’t pronounce properly, but also having empathy with this character. And I personally love this - so many of us have had this experience of adapting our name, or taking on a nickname that someone gave us because apparently our name was too hard to pronounce. But here’s Rebecca going, you know what? You can say this name, and you can relate to this character.

Rebecca Lim

And it's been hilarious, actually, the amount of interviewers who have said, "Before I go on, I just need to check the name of the characters with you and how to say it." And I've had to phonetically spell them out for people. So, I've just said, "Xiao is like see ow. Like, S-E-E-O-W," so they can actually do it on air, because they just haven't had to think about that before. But then, it's really funny, because I've given them the way to say it phonetically. And then, on air, it just morphs. So, they'll start off the right way. And then, all of a sudden, it becomes Wan, and then Wen, and then Wern you know? Like, it's all over the place. So, it's just because I guess people haven't had to think about it. And I really wanted people to think about it.

Jay Ooi

Rebecca has also been not so shy about her critique on confucianism in this book, and dove right into the texts themselves.

Rebecca Lim

because I had an English literature background at university, I thought, "Right, I'm going to take the Analects and bloody read the actual thing and see what it says," right? And I think, unfortunately, I've now read it from end to end three or four times.

Rebecca Lim

So, it was written 2,500 years ago. It could have been authored by any number of people, right? We don't know who these people are who are speaking to each other. It's just a loose collection of stuff that's all just there and really revered for some weird reason.

Rebecca Lim

But the thing I wanted to say was, look guys, there's inconsistencies in this. So, you slavishly follow this thing, right? We've built governments on this. We've built family units on this thing, which is riddled with inconsistencies, doesn't have a role for women in it. Let's pull some of these out to explain to child readers, not that they will probably necessarily get it, that the reason Wen's life is like this, and her mother's life is like this, is because of this book, which is full of inconsistencies. So like, I think for one of the epigraphs, I pull out a quote that says, "To be a good man, you have to be obedient," right? And then, it's followed a few pages later by a quote that says, "To be a good man, you have to do your own thing. Think for yourself." And it's like, well, how can I be obedient and think for myself and be a good man? It's just all completely impossible to follow.  And so, for a woman, you know, take that back 25 degrees, it’s even more impossible to follow. 

Jay Ooi

Rebcca has also found the teachings to be quite classist and sexist, not covering how, say, a peasant should live, and being dismissive of women. Yet this is the foundation of a lot of Chinese ideals and attitudes towards life, so what are we to do with this?

Rebecca Lim

So, I just want people, I guess, and this will not go down with really Confucian parents, I just want people to think about what they're applying, you know? Like, think about what you're applying. And is this the best way to do stuff? Because surely, being a sophisticated people with a so-called sophisticated culture and cuisine, surely we can rethink things after all this time, and move on a little bit from it.

Jay Ooi

One particular area she critiques is shown through the relationship between Wen’s parents, and how Wen’s mum is on quite the short leash.

Rebecca Lim

And yeah, this kind of is close to home for me as well, because I think that generation ... Well, you're way younger than I am. But the generation above mine in particular, there's that real notion of control. And I always kind of think of, you know like bound feet, right? Where the hell did that come from? Because bound feet is like the ultimate control over a woman. She can't even walk five steps to get away from you, let alone leave home or whatever.

Rebecca Lim

So, I think what I was trying to do with this book, even though it's aimed at really little kids, it's like, look at your mom. Look at what she does for you, because there's a whole bunch of decisions and a whole bunch of cultural traditions that go into that. And don't just take her for granted, because she's given up all this stuff to do this for you. So, there's all this stuff built into that.

Jay Ooi

Mum, I see you, and I appreciate you.

Rebecca Lim

because they've been conditioned, I guess, like Pavlov's dogs, "I have to do it like this. If I don't do it like this, something will happen." Yeah, there's that whole thing with women. It's almost like an invisible leash. And I don't know why. And I really, really dislike that.

Jay Ooi

I’m sure a lot of us have seen this play out, either with our own parents or with relatives or friends’ parents. You have the very obedient wife who’s frantically running around doing all the cooking and cleaning, whilst the husband kind of sits around and watches TV. In the book, Wen’s dad is very controlling, calling home at certain times expecting his wife to be there to answer, and criticising her management of money and her cooking and her behaviours.

Rebecca Lim

But I think if we keep on applying the ideology the way we do, I think we will keep on getting people like Wen's dad in the world, because they cannot unbend from the way they were raised or the way they were educated. And so, it's a really hard thing to make changes in your life.

Rebecca Lim

So, I think all I can really say is, if you're living in the West and you're an Asian father, try not to repeat the mistakes of your own father and your own grandfather. And that's the best you can do because you've got to try and break away from your conditioning.

Jay Ooi

We also see the importance of shame, and often how undesirable aspects of people get swept under the carpet. You might have had that experience where you’ve told your parents something and it’s never brought up again - it’s like you never even mentioned it. This is something Rebecca experienced as well.

Rebecca Lim

I mean, I came from pretty large families on both sides. And there were people who had epilepsy, there were people who had mental illnesses. And you just hid them away. Like, you just didn't talk about them. That's the funny uncle, you know? Like, he just kind of lives in that little house out the back and no one really sort of talks about it.

Rebecca Lim

And so, even now as an adult, one of my cousins has a pretty severe mental illness, and it's sort of constant. It will never go away. And so, she's kind of like a figure of shame for her parents and my parents even. It's like, we don't want to hear because she'll just do her crazy stuff and no one will be able to deal with it. And it's like, she's part of the family. How can you hide this kind of thing? So, yeah, really aware of that stuff growing up. And how there's always this veneer of, you have to live a really proper life.

Jay Ooi

Rebecca takes this one step further in a particular moment in the book, and just a warning, there are spoilers ahead. Okay, so Wen’s best friend Henry - his mum dies by suicide quite early on, and the ripple effects are big.

Jay Ooi

There's one quote that I pulled out, which I think is from Wen's dad, which is, "Fay Xiao was weak. That much was well-known. She did not conduct herself properly while she was alive. And now she has brought Ah Yuan and his connections great shame. We must all learn from this." And that, to me, when I read that, I was like ... It made me really sad. But at the same time, I'm like, I understand that mentality.

Rebecca Lim

Yeah, I get it. I know, because a lot of people ... I think when they were writing teacher's notes for that particular quote, they said it was about mental illness. And I actually wrote back and said, "Yeah, maybe for you guys. But it's actually about propriety. How are you supposed to live a proper life?" And so, I think I managed to shove the word proper into the actual response or question to that quote.

Rebecca Lim

But I think from an Asian perspective, it's all about, have they brought me shame? Have they caused connections shame? Have they sort of besmirched the name? Rather than mental illness. Like, it's more than the person, even. I think if someone does something that drastic, unfortunately Chinese people don't just look at her and go, "That was really sad. She was really ill," right? They actually go, "That was really sad. She was really badly brought up." Which is really terrible. I mean, you know? Lots of stuff goes into making a person. But we just kind of say it's a bad upbringing issue, not a mental illness issue, which is really terrible.

Jay Ooi

Yeah. And I think we both can imagine that if, say, her parents were around, that they would be so shamed and people would not want to associate with them. And I don't know, they might not even want to go out in public. You see that in, I guess-

Rebecca Lim

Yeah, anymore. I know. It's really, really tragic. So, that's the thing. People are like, "Oh, that's a bit drastic, isn't it? What she did." And it's like, it's quite common, but we just don't talk about it.

Jay Ooi

Yeah. Was there any particular ... I guess apart from calling out how kind of silly it is, was there any particular thing that you wanted to communicate in that?

Rebecca Lim

I think that ... And that's the thing, there's so many layers in this. It's like, if you poke it, there's a layer. But I think with this particular event, I wanted to show just so-called mainstream kids that some migrant and refugee families are so full of despair that, I think the woman feels like there's no other way out. And so, that would explain something this drastic and final. And so, I think ... Because a lot of kids are given books that basically are sort of one or two issues. Like, the dad left home, how do I deal with that? Or my dad lost his job, how do I deal with that?

Rebecca Lim

And with migrant and refugee children, it's like, not only does my dad not have a job, he's beating up my mom or we don't have enough money to actually have dinner. And that's why the school's handing me a sandwich every so often. Like, I want kids to understand, the person sitting next to you in class, not only do they have to pretend to be a normal student and get through their normal day, they are also dealing with potentially not having enough to eat, having an abusive home relationship, having a mother who's terrified of the father. Stuff like that, I'm just trying to get kids to think about their relative levels of privilege.

Rebecca Lim

And so, this kind of event kind of says to them, some people absolutely hit rock bottom and see there's no light at the end of the tunnel. They cannot recover from this, they can't see over the wall. And this is what happens. So, I just wanted to, I guess build empathy in people. Like, just understanding.

Jay Ooi

If we haven’t painted the picture yet, Tiger Daughter covers ground that’s quite nuanced and touches upon a lot of the experiences of many Asian Australians, much more than Rebecca’s previous novels.

Jay Ooi

You mentioned as well that you probably won't be showing Tiger Daughter to your parents. What specific things in there do you not want them to see?

Rebecca Lim

The reason why I won't be showing it to them is, because they are not questioning of anything ever. Like, everything that's written in The Age must be true, right? If I give it to them, it will seem as if it's a full on criticism of the way I was brought up, even though it's not really autobiographical. Nobody in ... The parents don't resemble my parents, for example. But there are things in there that are crazy, which actually happened. So, their minds will go back to that and go, "Oh my god, she's been judging me all these years," or whatever.

Rebecca Lim

So, I think that's probably why I won't be showing them, because they won't get the nuances. Like, they won't get what I'm trying to do. They'll be like, "This is a wholesale attack on the way you were raised. Like, on Confucian philosophy," which it kind of is. But nobody really knows that, other than me and every other Asian kid who's been through that upbringing, right? Like, no offense to a white person, but a white person picking it up will go, "This is a moving story about coming of age," or something like that. But any Chinese kid who's been through this upbringing will go, "Oh yeah. I remember. Oh yeah, that reminds me of stuff that happened to me." So, that's why.

Jay Ooi

I certainly had a lot of these moments as I was reading Tiger Daughter. Little vignettes of similar experiences, or moments of heartbreak that were so much more powerful because I understood more of the weight and the meaning behind what was happening. But I wanted to know how Rebecca balances a lot of these Confucian values that she critiques with the flipside of becoming fully whitewashed. Her answer?

Rebecca Lim

take the best bits of where you came from. Keep those, and carry those forward. And just discard the shit, you know? Like, discard the stupid stuff that holds you back.

Rebecca Lim

But also, don't give up the essential parts of yourself, which are really important. And for her, it's empathy, kindness, you know? And that comes from her mother looking after her as a child, that kind of cultural idea of caring for others in your community. Don't give that good stuff up. But give up the bad stuff like sexism and all that kind of stuff.

Rebecca Lim

It's up to us to do it, I think. It's up to us. Like, that's the thing, that's why I kind of called this Tiger Daughter, because it was like, I want the kids who come out of that upbringing to do it differently. And so, hopefully from our generations onwards, we won't be quite so stiff and proper and completely overzealous.

Jay Ooi

And Rebecca has taken on board this logic of keeping some of the good stuff, but getting rid of a lot of the stuff she doesn’t like, in the way she’s raising her family.

Rebecca Lim

they'll say things like, "All my friends go to Chinese cram school on the weekend. Should I do that as well?" And I'm like, "You can't even focus on something for like an hour. There is no way you could sit there for five hours doing maths. Are you serious?" And so, I mean, I still see it all the time because my youngest daughter's still in junior school. And so, she had a birthday party pre-COVID. And there were 16 girls at the party and nine of them left before the cake arrived because they had to go to cram school, right? And so, there's like six of them singing happy birthday at the end because the rest of them went to study on a Saturday or Sunday or whatever it was.

Rebecca Lim

So, like I say to them, "If you want to be like that, by all means. But you're really enjoying your life right now. So, I think maybe don't introduce that kind of stuff."

Jay Ooi

Yeah, right. It's like you've gone the other way, the opposite.

Rebecca Lim

Yeah, I'm completely lazy mom, you know? Like, I don't even know if there's a word for it, you know? Asian mother who turns away from roots. But anyway, that's what I am.

Jay Ooi

Despite describing herself as a lazy mum, Rebecca works part time as a lawyer on top of her writing work, but there was a period where she quit her law career to focus on writing.

Rebecca Lim

Yeah, I quit for a really long time, yeah. And my mother was like, "She's wasted her life." Like, she'd tell complete strangers in shops, "She's wasted her life. All her study, she's wasted it." And so, yeah, that was like 10 years of, "She's wasted her life," and then I quietly sort of went back to it. And now she doesn't say that anymore, which is good. But still not as good as my sister, who is a professor of radiology. But okay, it's fine. Like, she's not wasting her life now, she's just doing some weird stuff on the side. But she's all right. I can actually talk about her again.

Jay Ooi

And I guess, we've got two battling things in my head, where you're chasing your dreams versus a good, stable career. And now you've kind of done the career, you've done the writing. And now you're kind of doing both part-time. Where do you stand on this spectrum? Or how feasible is this chasing dreams idea?

Rebecca Lim

It's really feasible if you don't sort of go into it thinking that you are going to be Stephen King, I think. Like, for a lot of people, they're like ... And this is that despair cycle that I'm sort of trying to deal with in this book as well. A lot of kids often think, "If I don't make it as this thing, that's it. My life is over." And I think I'm testimony to, you can do lots of things sort of semi-badly and still be fine, right?

Jay Ooi

Yeah. It's a tough one because this is something I struggle with as well because I had quit my job for a period and was kind of bludging around and trying to do more creative stuff.

Rebecca Lim

See, don't say bludging.

Jay Ooi

Yeah, I know.

Rebecca Lim

Don't say bludging. Where is that coming from?

Jay Ooi

So bad.

Rebecca Lim

That's coming from your parents. That's your ... Your dad is channeling through you right now. So, don't use that word.

Jay Ooi

Yep. But at the same time, working full-time now, kind of it's nice to get a paycheck every month.

Rebecca Lim

Yeah, it's lovely.

Jay Ooi

But at the same time, I still want to do something creative, like the podcast. And it's like, I find it difficult to say to people now, "Just go chase your dreams," because oftentimes it's not going to actually earn you a living.

Rebecca Lim

Yeah, that's the thing.

Jay Ooi

That's how I feel.

Rebecca Lim

I tell kids who ask me all the time. Like, I always say to them, "Have a day job." And I think most people are really horrified by that because it's too realistic to tell children. But they say things like, "Hey, Miss. You must be a really famous author and fly around everywhere and sign autographs." And I'm like, "I got in my Toyota to drive down the Eastern Freeway to your school." So, it's completely not true. And so, I think for me, I'm probably one of the least wanted children's speakers on the circuit, because I'm always like, "Get something else in your back pocket because it can't feed you." But you know, no teacher wants to hear that because they want their children to have the dream of being a writer. But it's like, it's a lovely dream and I wish I had more time to do it. But unfortunately, you do have to pay your Telstra bill.

Jay Ooi

Maybe we’re being too realistic, but for Rebecca, having the dayjob is almost necessary to let her pursue her writing, because the number of people who can make a full time living from their writing is so small compared to the number of people who want to. And writing these stories is super important to her, because she wants to diversify the books that children, like her daughter, will read in schools. I asked her why diversity in literature is so important.

Rebecca Lim

It's super important because otherwise you'll get kids like me turning away from children's books, and reading either inappropriate stuff or just going to other media. Like, a lot of the kids that I speak to at schools which are disadvantaged, I go there, I bounce in with my three hours worth of, "Here's the craft of writing. I've given you everything. Here's a roadmap of how to write a book." And they're like, "We don't read. It's just not interesting to us. We'd rather be making a video with our friends or writing rap poetry or just performing, writing in our journals, reading to each other from our journals," because it's more immediate, you know?

Rebecca Lim

For these guys who, maybe their parents are struggling to put food on the table, right? The idea of going to some imaginary prom where you can win the hand of the prince is just so remote from your experience that it's not exciting to do. So, that's why.

But I think all kids just want to see themselves in stories. Like, they just want to see themselves on TV, because otherwise it's like, you're not worth as much as everyone else. You don't have a story that's as valuable as everyone else's story.

Jay Ooi

To finish up, I asked Rebecca what her advice is for Asian kids who are keen to pursue something creative but are getting pressured into more traditionally respectable and stable careers.

Rebecca Lim

I would say to kids, don't despair, because if your parents are being really difficult, it's really a very short part of your life. And if you can make them happy in a way that doesn't do any damage to you, do it. Get that out of the way, and then go make yourself happy. Like, it's possible to do all these things. You can have your medical degree, and you can go off and be a DJ. Like, why not?

Credits

This episode of Shoes Off was written and produced by me, Jay Ooi, with audio editing by Kezia Yap.

Special thanks to Rebecca Lim for the chat, and Jess Pham for helping with research. 

In the show notes for this episode at shoesoff.net you can find links to Rebecca’s work, particularly Tiger Daughter which you should definitely check out.

Some music by Avik Chari and the episode artwork is by Yelly Chuan.

What elements of your cultural heritage do you plan on keeping, and what do you plan on leaving behind? Let me know @shoesoffau on facebook and instagram.

If you liked Shoes Off please subscribe, we’re on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you’re listening to it right now, or head to shoesoff.net

And if you have any bookworms in your life, please share this episode with them.

Thanks, and catch you next episode.

Jay Ooi

In general, a personal thank you for writing it.

Rebecca Lim

Thank you.

Jay Ooi

I really enjoyed it.

Rebecca Lim

Thank you for reading it.

Jay Ooi

Absolute pleasure. Like, I think I told a lot of friends, I'm like, "This is a book that you probably haven't read something like this before." So many little things that I almost cried at, I think. Like, this just spoke to me. So yeah, thank you.

Rebecca Lim

I love that. I love that. That's the best praise, because people go, "I cried when I read it." I'm like, "Yes." So yeah, that's the best thing I could hear. So, thank you. I'm really, really grateful that you featured me.

 

Guests

Rebecca Lim - Tiger Daughter

Researcher

Jess Pham