Dec 23

Dec 23 S04E04 - Can't Touch This: Why We Don't Hug our Parents

Transcript

Jay Ooi:

Hugs and kisses are so normal here in Australia. People greet with them, parents show affection to their kids, and even in public, couples are all up in each others’ business. But not all of us grew up with a lot of physical affection. So why is this the case?

Pan Wang:

so in high-context cultures, people don't express their feelings and emotions straightforwardly,

Jay Ooi:

How does this affect us?

Ben Cheong:

PDA is definitely not on the table. In the few relationships that I've had, PDA has definitely been absent.

Jay Ooi:

And what can we learn from each other?

Ying Jie Guo:

So when I was growing up, even though I didn't have the kisses and hugs from my parents, I never felt I was deprived, I still don't feel I need it.

Jay Ooi:

Hello and welcome to Shoes Off, stories about Asian Australian culture. I’m Jay Ooi.

Growing up in the suburbs of Sydney, I’d often go over to family friend’s houses. I would greet all the Asian aunties and uncles, “hi Aunty Lye San, hi Uncle Victor,”, maybe a polite little wave, but never a hug or a handshake. Even amongst us kids, we never fist bumped or bro hugged, in fact, we might not even greet each other.

I remember my primary school teacher was once teaching us about handshakes, and even though I’d seen it done before, it still felt so foreign to me. How firm is firm? And I never use handshakes anyway, except at end-of-year awards. Why do I need to learn about them?

Even in high school, amongst my Asian friends, we never really physically greeted each other. It was just, acknowledge each other’s presence, sometimes awkwardly if we haven’t seen each other in a while, and move on. No hugs, handshakes, even fancy bro-y greetings where you grab each other’s arms, pull them in and pat them on the back. Just this very present literal distance between the two of us that we both know is there, but we feel too uncomfortable to do anything different.

So in this episode, I want to explore this lack of physical touch. Where it comes from, and how it affects us.

Pan Wang:

We need to talk about the influence of traditional culture and ancient philosophies in China because these shaped people's perceptions, generation by generation and how people are brought up, the way they're taught by their parents.

Jay Ooi:

That’s Dr Pan Wang, who teaches Chinese culture, media and communication and gender at UNSW.

Pan Wang

In traditional and feudal China there were rules and doctrines derived from ancient philosophies like rites of [Zhou 00:06:46], Confucianism, and these ideas for example, three principles and five virtues, three obediences and four virtues, these are all governing the physical actions in everyday behaviors of people.

Jay Ooi:

Now this period that Dr Wang is talking about, feudal China, is from around 1000 - 200 BCE. Yet a lot of these ideas and philosophies are still very prevalent in a lot of East Asian thinking. One example?

Pan Wang:

There is one saying called [foreign language], men and women should not touch hands, but they give or receive things, and that's cited from Mencius. There are other sayings like [foreign language], serving the heaven and destroying human desires, and there are other doctrines that emphasize the importance of women's chastity, et cetera, and what women should be doing, what men should be doing, and so people do follow these code of ethics.

Pan Wang:

Generation by generation, that's how people were brought up and educated and so basically people's behaviors should fit in the prescribed moral frameworks by the government.

Jay Ooi:

Now I know that your parents might not be Chinese, but I think these frameworks have permeated into a lot of Asia. Ones like “People can have a long-term life plan only if they know their private property is secure”, or “The superior man acts before he speaks, and afterwards speaks according to his action.”. I’m sure you can see some of these ideals of what is proper and aspirational in maybe your parents or grandparents - I certainly can in mine. And expressing yourself physically is just not one of these aspirational traits.

Ying Jie Guo:

So touching between men and women was extremely rare, certainly in public, even behind closed doors for an unmarried man to touch an unmarried woman would be extremely rare unless there's something going on.

Jay Ooi:

That’s Professor Ying Jie Guo, who teaches Chinese Studies at the University of Sydney.

Jay Ooi:

What about if they were married though? I heard that even in front of their kids, they don't show any much physical-

Ying Jie Guo:

No, no, that's because it was not considered to be appropriate, even in front of the kids. It's not the appropriate thing to do. You don't want to set a bad example, and you don't want to show affection in front of the kids or anybody else. The belief was that, that's between you and me, you go to your own bedroom, you shut the door, you do whatever you want to do, and that's between the two of you. But in front of other people, no. Not appropriate to do that.

Jay Ooi:

I don’t know if this was the same for you, but a lot of my aunties and uncles who were married almost never showed physical signs of affection with each other. The moments of kisses or arms around each other turned eyes, and that one couple who were very affectionate I found rather odd.

Ying Jie Guo:

Certainly affection in front of other people wasn't considered to be appropriate. That's one. Two, affection in marriages wasn't considered to be that important. Mind you, most of the couples were arranged in the olden days, right?

Jay Ooi:

Yeah, true.

Ying Jie Guo:

So you don't really need affection or love to be married or to even stay married. And of course, many people came to love each other and to be affection towards each other, but it's usually between two people, you don't know what happened between the two in the bedroom when the door was shut. That's the thing. In front of the people you just don't do that. Not appropriate, full stop. And in terms of traditional Chinese marriages, affection and love didn't really play that big role. It was arranged marriage. It was arranged in many different senses of the word. Marriage was an economic relationship.

Jay Ooi:

It’s not even that long ago that arranged marriages were the norm, and still are in many countries and cultures. My grandparents had an arranged marriage, and from what I heard, a very good and successful one. This idea of marrying for love is quite a modern concept, and so when your marriage is arranged, physical affection isn’t necessarily vital to the relationship, nor what it’s built on.

Ying Jie Guo:

Affection and love were useful, were good, but even if you didn't have it, that doesn't mean you can say, let's get a divorce. Something else is holding the family unit together. It was a much practical kind of arrangement.

Ying Jie Guo:

It doesn't mean that the husbands and wives did not love each other. It's almost like they were thrown together, they were thrown into the same boat. You got to survive, what do you do? You like each other. It's in your interest to like each other, to be affectionate, to love each other. And that makes everything easier. And love is enjoyable, affection is enjoyable. So it is in your interest to do that, there's no reason for you not to love your wife or husband. There's no reason for you to keep a distance, to be cold or anything, it is not in anybody's interest.

Pan Wang:

If we go back, under Mao is really from 1949 to 1950s

Pan Wang:

People basically, their everyday life wasn't, I mean during this period, right, the media first of all was heavily controlled by the state.

Pan Wang:

Everything was centralized and private life was also under surveillance during this period because you start to see there's hanxu system, household registration, and the world work unit, so these are strong social institutions that played a key role in monitoring people's behaviors and their everyday life. Because of that, that really shranked the space for people to express affections and love in public.

Jay Ooi:

You can imagine if your every move and word is being monitored, you would be very measured in your actions. And Dr Wang also talks about this concept of Hanxu - an implicit way to express feelings and emotions, rather than being straightforward and explicit.

Jay Ooi:

What does it literally mean?

Pan Wang:

Hanxu?

Jay Ooi:

Yeah.

Pan Wang:

Hanxu, implicit, restrained.

Jay Ooi:

This implicit way of expressing feelings is this idea of a high context culture.

Pan Wang:

so in high-context cultures, people don't express their feelings and emotions straightforwardly, but they derive meanings and meanings of words from context. This makes affection expression implicit, restrained, and indirect rather than physically touching each other.

Jay Ooi:

So this concept of high and low context cultures was first introduced by anthropologist Edward T. Hall, and it’s all about how important is the context of what’s being communicated, for example, what social standing each person has in a conversation, body language, and hidden meanings within what is being said. Basically, low context cultures are more direct, assuming less about each other, and high context cultures rely on awareness of things like facial expressions and each person’s place within the bigger society. So what does a high context society look like in practice when it comes to expressing affection?

Pan Wang:

For example, people may express their feelings, affections through poems, through paintings, or through care and actions, et cetera. All of these are pretty indirect and also Chinese prefer implicit beauty, which is quite different from the West. Also, remember in Chinese culture is collectivist culture, so people's behaviors and thoughts are disciplined and there are unwritten rules of how to behave in a collective society.

Jay Ooi:

So in high context cultures like feudal China, people didn’t necessarily hug each other to show affection, but rather did it through actions or poems or paintings. I know, how romantic, right? When was the last time someone expressed their love for you in a painting?

Ying Jie Guo:

Interestingly, when you talk about distance and intimacy, the Chinese country is very contradictory in that. I keep on referring to the size of the population. Physical contact between strangers is okay, it's unavoidable. That's not an expression of intimacy. I don't know whether you've been to Nanjing Road in Shanghai-

Jay Ooi:

No.

Ying Jie Guo:

... It's getting better because not many people go shopping these days. When I was going to universities in Shanghai, in the 1980s, Nanjing Road used to be the shopping center of the whole country. So people would come from all over China to do their shopping in Nanjing Road. It was always packed. So pushing something was norm, touching somebody is not a problem. If you think it's a problem then there's something wrong with you because everybody sort of pushes themselves a bit. And when you try to get into the trains in China, there's a lot of physical contact, when you want to get in the buses, it's the same story. There are many places it is like that. So it's okay, it's not so bad to have physical contact with strangers, but physical contact between people you know well, is less so.

Jay Ooi:

When I started working on this episode, I don’t know why I had this image in my mind of a lot of Asians just being uncomfortable with any sort of touch, but this reminded me of like every trip I’ve had to Asia, where you’re brushing shoulders in malls or getting squished into trains, and that sort of contact is just normal. So it’s not that any physical touch is uncomfortable, but rather the context that touch happens in.

Ying Jie Guo:

Expressing intimacy is very, very different. Hugging is a very recent thing, and too much of it in China now, even I am not used to it. So my friends, my women friends, would give me a hug in the street, I don't feel comfortable with that, even though I have spent more than 30 years in Australia. And husbands and wives, boyfriends and girlfriends, when I was growing up, kissing was extremely, extremely rare in public.

Jay Ooi:

So a lot of this is making sense of the first gen migrants I know here in Australia, or even my relatives when I go visit them in Malaysia. Physical contact with people happens, but physical affection isn’t the proper thing to do, and physical affection between couples wasn’t really necessary for the relationship. So what happens when you get people with these ideals and ways of living coming to Australia and raising a family here?

Jay Ooi:

Paint a picture for me. You come home to see mom, how do you greet her?

Ben Cheong:

Wave hello. And then she will try and feed me. She will literally say hello to me and what do you want to eat? I think the way we show affection and love in our family is definitely food. We won't hug each other, won't kiss each other, but we will offer each other something to eat, I think.

Jay Ooi:

That’s Ben Cheong, co-author of The Overthinkers, and a Chinese Malaysian. Ben didn’t grow up with a whole lot of physical affection from his parents, and now doesn’t like it much himself.

Ben Cheong:

I think maybe as kids, we had cuddles and kisses and hugs, and they would hold our hands when we were walking in the shops and around. But I think as maybe from, I don't know, 10 years old, we just wouldn't kind of have that same level of intimacy as a family. And now, as an adult, I find it a smidge awkward to kind of have that physical contact like I see other people do in their families, like hugging their mom or kissing their mom.

Ben Cheong:

I have to kind of think to myself, all right, don't forget to kiss your mom on the cheek. She might like that. I think she will like that.

Jay Ooi:

Does she like that?

Ben Cheong:

I think so. But she is also quite awkward. If I try and kiss her on the cheek, she might bow down her head. Then I will kiss her scalp or something like that. I think she is a bit awkward with that too.

Jay Ooi:

What about with dad?

Ben Cheong:

Oh gosh. He doesn't even talk most of the time. I will try and give him a hug, but it's really awkward. I will try and reach in and he will kind of lean into the side of me, give me his shoulder. And then I will be touching the other shoulder. Kind of-

Jay Ooi:

A side hug thing.

Ben Cheong:

... a weird side hug thing. Or sometimes he will bow his head down if I kiss his scalp as well. I feel like the kiss on the cheek is definitely something that doesn't resonate with my parents. And that's probably amplified now in the age of COVID where physical touch is a bit of a no-no. That's kind of really exacerbated that need or desire to not touch people within my family.

Jay Ooi:

You had that way that your parents showed love, but I'm guessing you saw other families who were more huggy and kissy than your family was?

Ben Cheong:

Yeah.

Jay Ooi:

How did you perceive that as a kid growing up when you saw that?

Ben Cheong:

I think maybe when I was a younger kid, I kind of thought that seems nice. But then if I would hug my mom, she would kind of hug me, and then kind of walk away. Not that she didn't like me. Just kind of she is like, "All right. You've had your hug, now go." But other families, they would hug each other on the couch as we were kids. And that was really nice.

Ben Cheong:

Maybe I did really want that as a kid. But then as I grew older and just realized that was kind of normal for my parents to not want to be as affectionate through physical touch. Now, I kind of think that as my norm as well. Now, I am quite hands off with most of my friends, and even with my family as well.

Jay Ooi:

Ben, like a lot of us, had to learn that physical affection just wasn’t a thing his parents were going to do. And like me, he had to uncomfortably learn how to greet his peers with some sort of physical contact.

Ben Cheong:

Well, I remember it was when I was at high school. And I was hanging out with a lot of girls, because I was a gay boy. And you find kind of safety in the group of girls. And I just noticed that whenever they were greeting each other, this was probably when I was about 13, 14, they would hug each other, and then do a kiss on the cheek. I was like, "Why are you doing that?" Well, I was thinking that. I would never ask them that, because it clinched me pretty quickly. It's like, "Okay. Well, that's how we greet now, because that's what adults do apparently." Because you see in the movies people kiss on the cheek or whatever.

Ben Cheong:

I suppose as a 13 year old, you are trying to just make your way in the world and be more adult like. You try and mimic that behavior you see. My friend started doing that. And I gradually started doing that. But I remember it was so awkward when I first tried to do it. I think I headbutted someone once.

Jay Ooi:

Ben still finds greeting people with some sort of touch a little uncomfortable, which made me feel bad for hugging him as we greeted only minutes earlier. I tell him I won’t hug him when I leave, which he seems pleased to hear. And even with his closest friends, he still prefers some distance.

Ben Cheong:

My best friend is a girl, straight cis woman. And she is very affectionate, very touchy feely. And I sometimes will be walking and she will want to link my arm. And I get really awkward when that happens. Sorry, Margo. But I know that it doesn't mean anything, obviously, because I'm gay and she is straight and has different interests. Or she will try and hold my hand, and I know there's nothing more to it. She just is affectionate. But then I'll get really awkward.

Jay Ooi:

But what makes him even more uncomfortable? Public displays of affection between couples. He recalls one particular couple in high school who were quite over the top.

Ben Cheong:

And I just remember loathing it so much and resenting them so much that I think that any kind of physical affection that I have in public, whether it's a hug or kiss on the cheek or maybe an arm around the shoulder, I feel like people might perceive me as over the top or nauseatingly affectionate if I do that, even though it may or may not be the case. It might just be a one off physical contact. But I don't want anyone to think that of me.

Jay Ooi:

Did that make you uncomfortable?

Ben Cheong:

It did make me a bit uncomfortable, actually. Maybe that's also a reflection on the childhood that I had going, well, no one in my life has ever touched each other this much, and you guys are just constantly attached.

Jay Ooi:

Ben, like me, had to learn different levels of appropriate touch amongst gay men. I remember being very put off at first by not just the amount of hugging, but kisses, holding hands or waists, or even more amongst friends. From what I saw, a lot gay men are very physically affecitonate.

is gay, and one thing I defnitely had to learn was the level of physical contact amongst gay men. Some gay men can be, how should I put it, very physically affectionate.

Ben Cheong:

Do you feel that by receiving that touch, that you might kind of open up a can of worms where you just kind of get together immediately after a soft graze of the knee?

Jay Ooi:

A little bit. Yes. Is that how you feel?

Ben Cheong:

A little bit. Actually, that's a really good point. I don't want to kind of, like I mentioned before, discerning between friends, casual hookups or romantic interests. I try and really draw those boundaries. And I feel like if you start kind of having lots of affection with your gay friends, depending on the group, then that can just lead to a whole lot of, I don't know, complexities that are better left. I just feel like lots of physical touch in a gay friendship circle can open up a can of worms, I feel.

Jay Ooi:

It can easily lead to more than just something.

Ben Cheong:

It can lead to friends getting together. And then drama happening between those two and schism in friendship groups.

Jay Ooi:

Okay. Tell me, what if anything changes when you are in a relationship? We know PDA is off the table.

Ben Cheong:

PDA is definitely not on the table. In the few relationships that I've had, PDA has definitely been absent. And I'll tell them pretty upfront. But in terms of private setting, I suppose I've kind of tried to force myself to be more affectionate physically in those few relations that I've had, just because you think this is what couples do. They hug each other and they link arms. And to me, it always felt very awkward to do that. But I think in my head, well, this is what couples do, and I don't want them to think that I don't like them. I'm not going to not do it. Of course, those relationships don't exist anymore. I mean, maybe there is something to be said about that. But into my relationships, I would still prefer to not have too much contact. Obviously, sex is something I'd want to do. That's fine. But if it's not sex, or a little bit spooning is okay. But after that, just get off me.

Jay Ooi:

Just a little bit of spooning.

Ben Cheong:

Just a tiny bit of spooning, and then get off me, because, again, I run really warm and I don't want to sweat.

Jay Ooi:

What about sitting on the couch watching a movie?

Ben Cheong:

I suppose we are not going to be socially distant apart then. And actually, you know what? If I'm watching a movie with a partner, then I wouldn't mind resting my head on his lap or something like that. But, to me, it still feels a little bit forced.

Jay Ooi:

Okay. Still, ideally, you would just sit with a little gap between you?

Ben Cheong:

Yeah. Maybe I've inherited my mom's fear of germs.

Jay Ooi:

You don't have to answer this question, but do you think it's affected your relationships?

Ben Cheong:

Maybe. I have been told that I can be very cold and emotionally unavailable. And I don't know why. No. I'm joking. Obviously, if I'm not touching someone or going near them, they might rightfully so think that I don't like them. Because some people, their language of love, I say that in inverted commas, is touch or acts of service or words. And for me, mine is acts of service, feeding someone. But for someone else, it might be a physical touch, reassurance of that. But that's certainly something that I'm only recently conscious of. Maybe that is why I have relationship, among the many other things.

Jay Ooi:

Do you think if you had people in your life who, I guess, knew that and were like, "Okay. We'll stop hugging Ben." Do you think you'd feel a loss of connection with these people?

Ben Cheong:

No. Even in COVID, actually, COVID is my ideal situation. Sorry. I actually shouldn't say that. Social distancing was not a problem for me, because that is literally my ideal state, is that people do not come too close to me.

Jay Ooi:

So even today, Ben much prefers not having physical greetings with people. And for Ben, like many of us, we prefer affection to be shown in other ways.

Melissa Ty:

I think that in Asian cultures it ends up being more acts of service. So that idea of feeding and providing food, is incredibly important and that's the way a lot of parents, especially mothers show love.

Jay Ooi:

That’s clinical Psychologist Melissa Ty.

Melissa Ty

It could be also providing for their children, giving them opportunities and working hard to provide. Giving gifts. Those are also ways that they show love. So I think it's more around those practical and more tangible ways they show love.

Jay Ooi:

Here’s Dr Wang from UNSW again.

Pan Wang:

Say for example if that's between me, I'd say if that's between a daughter and a mother, if a daughter wants to express love to her mother, the daughter will say [foreign language 00:10:09], for example, by her actions, by cooking a meal for her mother or buy a piece of clothing for her mother rather than just say, "Oh mom, I love you."

Jay Ooi:

There’s that overused image of parents cutting fruits for their kids as a way of showing love, but it really is quite true - that’s how the Asian families I knew growing up showed their love - through feeding us.

Jay Ooi:

Tell me more about food? How does that show up in your family?

Ben Cheong:

It's such a important part of what brings us together and kind of guides a lot of our family engagement.

Ben Cheong:

It's very normal for us to just always come together, lots of food on the table, one of us is cooking or multiple of us are cooking. And it's a way that we show appreciation to each other, because we know everyone has a different taste for what they like. If we make something specially for that person, that's our way of showing love, because we care for them, we've prepared something for them. And we want them to enjoy it. That's kind of how we do that in our family.

Jay Ooi:

But there is one way that some sort of affection is shown physically within families. And it might not always be perceived as affection.

Pan Wang:

I mean in traditional Chinese culture, it's very hierarchical in terms of relationship inside the family.

Pan Wang:

It's not a surprise that there are rules and disciplines in place to regulate people's behaviors inside the family. Because of that, it's difficult really to... I mean just the culture is completely different. There is no expression of physical affection within the family and in society. Very little, except couples in private, so yes. Discipline, as you mentioned, is one.

Melissa Ty:

I think that one way that some people could say their parents show them love is actually through discipline and scolding and nagging. And I think there is even a saying in China, even, maybe even Vietnamese but like, "Scolding is love. Nagging is love." It's the idea of, "I am trying to raise you to be a good person."

Jay Ooi:

For those of us that did receive physical discipline, this may also affect how we view physical affection. This is just a theory, but if we didn’t receive much positive physical contact, we may see it in a more negative light. But I still can’t shake that feeling that we’re missing out on something by not having that physical closeness. Here’s me talking to Psychologist Melissa Ty again.

Jay Ooi:

So when it comes to babies and development there, how important is physical contact at that stage?

Melissa Ty:

Our understanding is that it's extremely important. From an evolutionary perspective, physical touch is really key to safety and security. There have been studies done of Romanian babies in orphanages who were growing up with extreme neglect and they are incredibly socially and mentally delayed. So it has a lot of far reaching effects. There was even a study done in the 1960s on rhesus monkeys.

Melissa Ty:

In the study, they had what they called a wire mother. It was a rhesus monkey mother, made of wire that had a bottle attached for feeding. Then they had what they called a cloth mother who didn't have any food attached but was covered in soft cloth. And they found that the baby rhesus monkey would spend so much more time just cuddling the cloth mother, even though the other mother provided food. There is something about physical contact and touch that does provide that comfort and soothing, and a sense of safety.

Melissa Ty:

Stress or sadness, generally, if we're scared, we seek comfort and physical touch is the way that we often comfort each other. And that is from infancy. That doesn't go away.

Jay Ooi:

Have you seen I guess a spike in, I don't know, loneliness or depression or other-

Melissa Ty:

Definitely. Yeah. Definitely. People are feeling really lonely, feeling really isolated. And finding that... Many are even wondering are my friends really my friends? They're not reaching out to me the way that we would normally and finding that really difficult.

Jay Ooi:

So if we’ve missed out on hugs or kisses or other forms of physical affection, should we be trying to bridge that gap?

Melissa Ty:

I would say you should do that. Try to initiate affection. Try to initiate physical touch even if it's just something as simple as putting a hand on their back, before you do a full hug. It sounds really strange, but I think both sides will realise, "This is nice", and hopefully do it more.

Melissa Ty:

I think a lot of the time there can be a lot of tension between parents and children, so some people think there is no point. It would be too strange and there is too much of a gap there for us to bridge and they didn't get that from other people in their lives. But I think if people feel comfortable enough then it's definitely worth trying.

Pan Wang:

More conversations, more talking would be very helpful and yeah. They don't, I mean kids and parents who were brought up in completely different cultural social environments, they don't have to change each other, they just need to show more understanding of each other and change themselves a little bit to further commit to each other and to connect and communicate with the cultures that they are living in, yes.

Ying Jie Guo:

My philosophy is, when you're in Rome, you do what the Romans do.

Jay Ooi:

Professor Ying Jie Guo from the University of Sydney again.

Yin Jie Guo

I've been hugging my daughter ever since she was little, we live in Australia, we try to do what Australians do. I think that's probably the best policy. That's the best thing to do. When I go to China, I don't try to hug people. And when people hug me, I don't feel comfortable. Do I feel I was deprived of affection when I was growing up? No. Because there are different ways of showing affection. My parents would do it in different ways, give you a lolly and cut a piece of food and put it in your mouth, they don't need to give you a kiss or hug, it's just different ways of showing affection. They look at you and smile and touch you on the head, there are different things they do, different ways of showing affection.

Ying Jie Guo:

So when I was growing up, even though I didn't have the kisses and hugs from my parents, I never felt I was deprived, I still don't feel I need it. Well, because at the end of the day, we're talking about different ways of showing affection. Just because my parents never kissed me and hugged me, it doesn't mean they were not affectionate, they didn't love me. I don't feel that way. And it's certainly, if anybody said that, I'll tell them that's not true, because there are certainly more ways to show affection.

Jay Ooi:

I think this is something a lot of us have come to realise as we grew up. That even though our parents didn’t show us love in an explicit way, that they showed their love for us in many other ways. From always feeding us, to maybe driving us to and from school or tutoring, or choosing where to live based on where the good schools are - there are so many ways my parents showed love beyond physical affection. And I know that’s the way they want to receive love as well - not always with a hug, although my parents are very cool with hugs, but with meals or thoughtful gifts or helping around the house. Sure, when I’m around my more westernised friends I will do as the Romans do and greet them more physically, but there isn’t necessarily one good or right way, and we can learn as much about expressing affection from our ancestors as they might be able to from us. And for Ben, that means he’s pretty comfortable without much physical contact. To wrap up, I asked him how he feels about it today.

Jay Ooi:

Do you ever crave physical contact that's not sexual? Are you ever like I just want a hug from my best friend or my mom or my sister?

Ben Cheong:

No.

Jay Ooi:

That's okay. When you are feeling sad, does a hug help or no?

Ben Cheong:

Not really. Like I mentioned before, my family shows affection through food. I think I'm a bit of an emotional eater.

Jay Ooi:

Okay. When you are feeling sad, you just want someone to bring you food?

Ben Cheong:

Yes.

Jay Ooi:

You don't want them to touch you.

Ben Cheong:

Don't touch me. Just give me... Literally, here is your plate of food. I will walk away. That is the perfect partner for me would do that.

Jay Ooi:

This episode of Shoes Off was written, produced and edited by me, Jay Ooi, with research by Jess Pham and Kayleigh Yap, thank you both.

Special thanks to all the guests in today’s episode: Dr Pan Wang, Professor Ying Jie Guo, Ben Cheong and Melissa Ty.

In the show notes for this episode at shoesoff.net you can find all the references and a link to Ben’s book The Overthinkers.

Some music is by Avik Chari and the episode artwork is by Yelly Chuan.

There’s a lot we didn’t cover in today’s episode, like the changing landscape of China due to globalisation and economic influences and how this can all change when people start drinking so let me know what you wish you heard more on @shoesoffau on facebook and instagram.

If you liked Shoes Off please subscribe, we’re on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you’re listening to it right now, or head to shoesoff.net

And if you have a friend that you awkwardly greet from afar, please share this episode with them.

Thanks, and catch you next episode.

Jay Ooi:

But if you do hookup with someone, isn't that fucking awkward for you to just start touching, to initiate some contact? Why is that? What changes?

Ben Cheong:

I don't know. I think because it's just a primitive kind of desire. Sex is such a primitive thing for humans, for most humans. Not everyone feels that need, which is fine. But, for me, definitely it's a primitive kind of urge to just connect with someone physically. But then after that kind of feeling has pass, then I'm back to kind of feeling I don't want people to touch me or that I don't want to touch people.

Jay Ooi:

If they are like, hey, let's-

Ben Cheong:

Spoon.

Jay Ooi:

... spoon.

Ben Cheong:

No.

Jay Ooi:

Let's have a shower together.

Ben Cheong:

No. The shower together is the worst when they suggest that.