S01E07 - Trust me, I'm a doctor
Transcript
David
I remember hearing that people were pretty surprised when I actually went and dropped out….
Jay Ooi
Why do you think people were surprised?
David
I would just assume that it doesn’t happen very often. You could probably count on one hand the number of people who get into what you’d say is the most difficult degree in the state and then drop out after a year.
Jay Ooi
Doctors - what do our parents say? It’s a good stable career. You’ll be helping people and saving lives. It’s challenging. If your mum or dad doesn’t say this, you’ve probably at heard the proud parents of doctors humblebragging. Where did this prestige come from? And what’s it actually like in the profession? What does the doctor prescribe about being a doctor?
Welcome to Shoes Off, stories about Asian Australian culture. I’m Jay Ooi.
On today’s episode: doctors. They’re one of the most respected professions in Asian culture and one that many studious teenagers get subtly or not so subtly pressured into doing. In this episode we’ll hear from people working in the medical field, as well as one who got in but ended up pursuing something else.
Ruth
I think that people tend to view the medical profession very highly in asian societies, and I think that’s why there’s a big push for a lot of asian children to enter the medical field.
Jay Ooi
That’s Ruth a geriatrician, or an aged care doctor in Melbourne. She studied medicine after her pharmacy degree and she’s been working as a doctor for almost 15 years. And she’s definitely right, a lot of my Asian friends were definitely pushed into the field, and I was no exception. Back in my time there was a separate test called UMAT that you needed for an undergraduate medicine degree. I had told my mum on more than one occasion that I did not want to study medicine, but she signed me up for a UMAT prep course anyway and for the UMAT test itself.
Ruth
After the first class I protested again, this time firmer than before. I told my mum, “why are you wasting money on the UMAT and the UMAT prep course when I know I’m not going to study medicine?” There was a little bit of annoyance with me on her part as well, but eventually she gave in and pulled me out of both. A decision I definitely don’t regret to this day. And thankfully Ruth has a good warning for people thinking about it.
But something which I guess I would always sort of forewarn people is that there’s actually a lot of studying and the studying doesn’t stop when you actually graduate. In fact, it continues, so you have to be prepared to at least put in another seven years at least of going through exams, and training etc, to get where you want to go. And that’s assuming that you get onto the right program and you get approved and you don’t fail any exams.
And most people then work full time and then try to sit the exam, which is pretty tough. So you can imagine you come home after a full day at work and you have to hit the books. On the weekends you have to hit the books, so you don’t have much of a social life really while you’re going through the exams...but if you don’t pass, you keep doing it till you pass or you change, I guess change your mind or change your career path.
Jay Ooi
Despite the seemingly endless amount of studying involved, medicine is still a popular degree amongst asians and one that’s highly sought after. There aren’t any hard statistics out there on which ethnicities are enrolling in the degree, especially the backgrounds of the Australians studying medicine, but some doctors who studied in Australia estimated their cohorts to be anywhere from 20 to 50% Asian, which is definitely higher than the proportion of Asians in Australia.
And her advice for people who aren’t sure what to study?
Ruth
I think my advice would be to think about it long and hard because it does involve a lot of study and it does involve a lot of years of putting in the hard work...and think about when I’m 30 years old, do I still want to be studying? And if something in you says probably not, then medicine is probably not the career for you. But if something in you says well, I think I’ll be able to do so, then yes, you know, then consider it. But you will be studying when you’re 30 years old.
The other thing which I did too as a student was I shadowed a GP and that was great. Yeah, so I got to see what a GP did on a day-to-day basis, and that’s what a lot of people who go into medical school end up doing.
Jay Ooi
But despite the seemingly never-ending studying and exams, Ruth does enjoy where she’s ended up, and she’s learned a lot from her patients as well, even if being a doctor does start off with more mundane tasks.
Ruth
I think at the beginning as a junior doctor, you do a lot of paperwork, and they don’t show that on television because it’s not very glamorous. There is a lot of paperwork to be done, so that actually involves most of your time as a junior doctor.
I do say that it is a privilege to be involved in people’s lives at very vulnerable moments, and especially I suppose in my own work in aged care, you do see people at their need really.
And I find that is actually a positive in the sense, not because you want them to, I guess, go through a difficult period, but more because you can have that privilege of supporting them through a very, very hard time...So when that dying process commences, whatever stage I can be involved in, I actually find that quite meaningful for me as a person and for me as a doctor as well. So that’s one of the positives of my job.
Jay Ooi
So we’ve heard from someone who has been in the hospital and medical system for a little while now, but what about people who are starting out in their medical careers?
Can you introduce yourself?
Vivien
Hi I’m Vivien, I am 28 and I am a GP Registrar at the moment.
Matthew
My name is Matthew I’m 29 and I also am a GP Registrar/trainee.
Jay Ooi
Matthew and Vivien are friends from high school and both studied medicine right after they finished at the University of NSW. Now, they’re both general practitioners, the ones not in hospitals that you go to for your everyday concerns.
Like place yourself back in your year 11 year 12 shoes, when you were choosing medicine, what did you think it was going to be like as a doctor?
Matthew
So for me my expectation was you can use a bit of your science medical knowledge and help to - people come to you for help and you just give them a cure. And by doing that you’re helping people in times of trouble, so that’s what I thought medicine would be like.
Jay Ooi
And now that you’re both doctors, have you met what you thought medicine/doctor would be like?
Vivien
I think there’s less heroic acts as we’d expect it to be. We’re not saving lives every day. Even when we’re back in hospital I would say that it’s not happening all the time.
Matthew
Yeah and even though you’re providing a service, it’s not just a simple transaction...I think medicine and the hospital system is just so complex and often you’re helping people navigate it and the other thing is not necessarily curing people or fixing their problems straight away as much as that would be nice to be able to do.
Vivien
I think I’ve come to realise that some people don’t want your help, even though we go into the profession thinking that we’re here to help, then you just have to accept that some people don’t want it. So that’s a bit of a reality hit.
Jay
So it’s a bit different from what they expected. Matthew and Vivien have both been in the hospital system before choosing to be a GP as their specialty. But over the years they’ve heard a lot about how people view doctors.
In Asian communities, what is the perception around being a doctor?
Matthew
I think particularly when you speak with older generation Asians, when they hear you’re studying medicine they definitely look up to you and see you as some sort of really smart person that’s helping to solve all these issues, so you definitely have this higher status that they perceive you at compared to the person who doesn’t do medicine.
Vivien
I feel like whenever I find out, oh you’re a doctor, the conversation kind of steers towards what I do as a job, whereas I just feel like, well I have other hobbies, and I have so much more in my life than just my job but it always seems to be very focussed on what I do for a living. And I just sometimes wish that was taken away a little bit.
Jay Ooi
Why do you think this status exists?
Matthew
I think Asian culture seems to have this hierarchy that there are...some professions or aspirations that are more respected than others.
Vivien
I think they value stability as well, that’s another thing in terms of a doctor, like probably still mostly true, they’re like you’ll never be out of a job, and the stability side of things make it more valuable.
Matthew
That’s very true. I’d have to agree on that, so they want to be able to set yourself up for a good life.
Vivien
Get a mortgage.
Matthew
...have a house, get married then have kids.
Jay Ooi
So being a doctor can pidgeonhole you in asian circles, but it is a very stable job, but how much influence did their parents have on choosing to study medicine?
Do you remember anything your parents taught you in regards to career paths growing up?
Vivien
I think they gave us quite a bit of freedom, but then even though they tried really hard to give you that, “you can pick whatever you want,” but I think subconsciously they kind of say for example certain career paths that they may think it’s a bad idea, they may say more things in the cons list than the pros list, without realising sometimes. Kind of just like, oh have you thought have this, have you thought about that, whereas the career choices where they might think is pretty good, there’s probably more positives to talk about.
Jay Ooi
Do you guys value stability, like is that important to you now?
Matthew
It’s not that if you’re in a job that has stability you’re going to find fulfilment and happiness for the rest of your life, no, but it is something that I do value in my work at the moment because it just makes, there’s a lot of things to worry about in life so at least having a stable job is nice rather than having to live not knowing what you might do in 3 months, 6 months time. For some people that works out very well, and they enjoy having a bit of changes and going from one thing to another, whereas I think my own personality is more suited to knowing something long term.
Jay Ooi
Those some people who like a bit of change? Yeah, he’s referring to me. But yes, being a doctor does give you a sense of stability; your career path is right there in front of you for you to grab. But it’s not all smooth sailing.
Do you get patients who request a different doctor because you’re asian?
Vivien
Yepp
Matthew
Oh have you?
Vivien
I think yeah yeah I have. I think it’s not just because I’m asian but because I’m asian, female and quite petite and short and young looking, so all of that together makes them go, I don’t want them as my doctor.
If I had a white male med student with me, the whole time, even though I’m the one going, I’ve introduced myself going, “hi I’m Vivien, I’m your doctor today, this is a med student, do you mind them being here?” and they’re like, “yeah yeah sure,” but the rest of the conversation, every single time they’ll be looking at him, asking the questions to him and then every time, the med student will be like, “oh, she’s the doctor,” it’s just so ingrained in them sometimes that, you know, they’re bigger than me, they must be more senior.
Jay Ooi
How does that make you feel?
Vivien
Just deal with it. I think it takes a lot of time and multiple generations for that to change.
Jay Ooi
Thinking about people who are in year 11 and year 12, and are maybe hearing these whispers from their parents, or maybe not whispers, and relatives and friends about going into medicine and how good it’s going to be...what advice do you have for these people?
Matthew
I think don’t find your identity and value in what you’re going to do or what you’ll study in university because there’s more to it than that to making who you are as a person. ANd in terms of the parents thing, I think just try to understand where your parents came from, I guess the upbringing that they had and see where these sort of things that they tell you come from and take it to value but don’t let it define who you are and define your choices.
Vivien
Because I think at the end of the day, people put a lot of focus on career and what you study when you’re young, but then as you get older, you realise there’s so much more to life.
Jay Ooi
That’s Matthew and Vivien, two asians who are currently working as doctors.
Next up we’ve got one of those rare cases where someone started studying medicine, but realised there’s more to life and didn’t see it through.
David
So hi, my name is David Wang, I was born in 89 and I was born in China and moved to Australia when I Was six or seven years old.
Jay Ooi
David’s a bit of a smart cookie. He got a scholarship to the university of Sydney for an accelerated science degree followed by a postgraduate medicine degree.
David
and then I ended up doing one year of med before...I basically took a one year sabbatical, one year off just to study computer science on my own. Because I wanted to...I suddenly realised I wanted to do programming in computer science.
So as for why to become a doctor...my parents always told me it was financially sound.
I think most of it was just the security of that kind of job was really appealing to them and that was what they wanted from me. I think that was the biggest reason for them anyway.
Jay Ooi
David ended up dropping out of med school after his one year sabbatical to pursue his interest in computer science. Growing up, David’s parents worked a lot so he spent a lot of time by himself, but his parents never needed to push him too much.
David
I naturally just fell into doing well in school and then going to college to study medicine and they didn’t really say anything because I was basically doing exactly what they expected me to do.
Jay Ooi
I’m just curious, back when you were in year 12 and you were obviously doing quite well in school, what made you want to put medicine as your first choice as opposed to other degrees that are also quite respected and require good grades.
David
I never really looked into the different things i could do I guess...I was just like, “Well I might as well do what my parents want me to do and what everyone around me seems to want to do.”
I realised at some point that I never really asked myself why I was doing what I was doing, and that was a big shock to me.
I think just the environment I was surrounded in, no one was ever questioning what we were doing.
Jay Ooi
David ended up getting a percentile ranking of 99.95, placing him in the top 0.05% of the state. Now with a ranking like that you can pretty much get into any degree you want. I remember looking through this big book of university degrees and the ranking required for each degree, and it was quite overwhelming. I didn’t really know what most of them were, and honestly, most of them just didn’t even feel like they could be an option for me. And David definitely felt the same. I asked him what would be the reaction if he had chosen to pursue something more unexpected.
David
I think that would have felt like they had put in all of this effort to move out of the country and give me this opportunity and I guess, it would have felt to them that I’d wasted it….And it’s like you’re disrespecting them by doing what you’re doing.
Jay Ooi
Did you feel, and do you still feel like you owe your parents something because of the sacrifices they made?
David
I do yeah, I definitely do. I consider them when making choices like, I want to be pretty sure that what i was going to do was still going to be successful.
Even now I feel like I do want to try and even make up for...I want to prove to them that that decision wasn’t wrong and I”m still trying to prove them wrong in their assumption that anything other than the best thing can work out, something like that.
I do feel like I owe them a little bit, and I am worried what is going to happen when they retire, because I know a lot of asian parents expect to live with their children.
Jay Ooi
David ended up studying computer science, and moved to the US for his degree. But talking through this decision with his parents wasn’t easy.
So can you tell me a bit more about that conversation that you had with your parents?
David
It’s a while back and I think, I’ll be honest, a lot of it’s a blur. Things were pretty heated.
It was pretty emotional, voices were raised and...a lot of the points...about why being a doctor was good, those were brought up, and conversely the things about like, why it’s not good to go into something like programming or anything, software engineering, they started bringing those points up.
I think I went through a lot of those processes and emotions pretty early on when I was first trying to convince them to let me come here.
Jay Ooi
You used the phrase,”Let me come to the states.” Can you talk a little bit more about that.
David
That’s a tough one….I came in with the preparation of just being able to go for it myself, but I guess at the heart of it, I still wanted their permission. I wanted them to say that it was okay for me to come here, because I think it comes back to that thing, I did feel like I owe them something at that point for sure. Like they’d raised me, I was staying with them while I was going to uni, they were feeding me, they were clothing me, they were taking care of me, cleaning up after me and doing all of this stuff, and to suddenly get up and leave without their permission just felt wrong.
Jay Ooi
Now David’s happily married and lives just outside of Seattle Washington. He has a house, a couple of cats and works at Microsoft. I asked him what advice he would give to people finishing high school and aren’t quite sure what to do next.
David
Honestly taking a year off is not a bad idea...You spend your whole life from K-12 having school and homework and assignments and here’s the thing you need to get done by the end of the week. And you’re going to uni and it’s really the same thing. It’s like, here are these assignments, here is the test, here are the weeks you have to do…
Like any advice I could have wished to give to myself is just, “Hey, you should go do this thing that you really like to do, just take a year off.” And where you don’t have to...you don’t have anything given to you to do, right? You have to go find something for yourself to do...It challenges you to figure out what you should be doing, rather than taking the easy route where somebody can tell you what you should be doing, you can just go do it and you’d be fine.
Jay Ooi
This episode was hosted, produced, written and edited by me Jay Ooi
Special thanks to everyone we spoke to for this episode Ruth, Matt, Vivien and David, and also Jim who also spoke to me about this but didn’t make it in.
If you liked Shoes Off please subscribe, you can find it wherever you get your podcasts, and share the love, because Asians, we need to talk more about being Asian. Thanks for listening, and catch you next episode.
Guests
Ruth Teh
Vivien Hsu
Matthew Lam
David Wang
