Transcript

Julianne

“So my mum... actually, the memories that I have is, we would go to Dymocks, and every time there was a new Math or English book, she would buy it for me, and I would have to do it. So titles like Cambridge Maths, and all that, I knew all the books in Dymocks because I did them all.”

Jay Ooi

Is growing up with a Tiger Mum really as bad as it’s made out to be? And what’s it like from the mum’s perspective?

Hello and welcome to Shoes Off, stories about Asian Australian culture. I’m Jay Ooi.

Tiger mums have been spoken about a lot in the media, the overbearing, controlling mother who wants straight A’s and musical prodigies. But not really having one myself, I’ve always wondered what it’s like to actually grow up with one, and to understand why they parent the way they do.

Now the term was coined by Amy Chua in her 2011 book ‘Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother’. Chua, an American chinese mother writes from her own perspective as a self proclaimed Tiger Mum, that she defines as a strict disciplinarian. It’s a little bit tongue in cheek, but also rings true for a lot of us. In her book, she says things like, “There are all kinds of psychological disorders in the West that don't exist in Asia.” and “Every day that you don't practice is a day you're getting worse.”

In today’s episode we’ll speak to a couple of kids of tiger mums, how it affected their life, and what they think of it now. And we’ll also talk to a tiger mum herself.

Jay Ooi

Can you just paint a picture of your childhood growing up?

Vivien

It’s probably very atypical. From when I was very very young my parents started going through a divorce, so I grew up in a single mum family, and then when I was around 6 or 7, moved here to Sydney with my brother and my mum.

Jay Ooi

That’s Vivien, originally from Hong Kong and a daughter of a mum who never really learnt English well. And Vivien does describe her mum as a tiger mum. Amy Chua says in her book, “My goal as a parent is to prepare you for the future, not to make you like me.” and Vivien’s mum kind of embodies this.

Vivien

I think for her, because she was just so stressed out in terms of me and my brother’s upbringing, that she probably had more emphasis in terms of pushing us into what she thinks is the best for us and probably less time to be as nurturing as she would like to be.

Jay Ooi

Was there a big emphasis on studies and grades?

Vivien

For me personally, she goes, yes you need to study hard, you need to be financially independent because potentially a divorce will ruin you, you know? Because of her own experience she would kind of, just being like telling me to be, this is an age where females can no longer rely on men.

Jay Ooi

Not the typical tiger mum story. Being the daughter of a single mum, Vivien talks about how her mum had to be both the strict disciplinarian but also wanted her daughter to tell her everything, which was confusing at times for Vivien, and led to a bit of conflict.

Vivien

She’s the type of mum who feels like, “I need to wake up until they get home.” And if two kids doing that every second weekend it becomes a toll so she’ll make certain rules going, “here’s your curfew.”

Jay Ooi

What did you clash over?

Vivien

Boys, going out, quite a lot of things like what I can wear...I think most asian parents are quite protective of their daughters in general.

Jay Ooi

So what didn’t she let you do?

Vivien

Mini skirts, definitely not a boyfriend in high school, all of those very typical things.

I am thankful for her pushing me in certain ways. I think the whole tiger mum concept, the foundation of it is that I want the best for my child...so for her she pushes you so that you can actually have a better life in the future.

...I feel like for a lot of Asian cultures, you will always be their children for the rest of their lives no matter if you’re 20, 30, 40, 50, they will always see you as their children.

Jay Ooi

Amy Chua opens her book talking about the things she doesn’t allow her children to do, including be in a school play, get any grade less than A and choose their own extracurricular activities. Sound familiar? It certainly does for our next guest.

paint me a picture of your childhood and growing up with your mom.

Julianne

The vivid memories that I had was, I was always studying. So my mum... actually, the memories that I have is, we would go to Dymocks, and every time there was a new Math or English book, she would buy it for me, and I would have to do it. So titles like Cambridge Maths, and all that, I knew all the books in Dymocks because I did them all.

Jay Ooi

Julianne grew up in Western Sydney as a child of two Vietnamese refugees, and her mum certainly was prescriptive. Julianne’s mum in particular put a lot of emphasis on studying and doing well in school.

Julianne

I started tutoring from probably when I was in year 1. Because my mom already had the view that by year 4, I would have to take the opportunity class to get into year 5 and 6. She already had that view and she already wanted me to go to James Ruse like it was that much planning.

Jay Ooi

So the opportunity class is a special class in certain schools for high achieving students, and James Ruse is the number one high school in the state.

Julianne

So, my childhood was pretty much studying and my mum developed a reputation amongst all the other relatives, which is that when they came over to visit, they always knew that, Kim, my Vietnamese name, would be in my room studying and don't disturb her.

...The only thing that I had was a radio in my bedroom and my book.

10:00 I had a radio next to me and I always listened to sports. That's how I grew to love all my sports. Like in rugby league for example, I started listening to the radio and rugby league, before I watched rugby league.

Jay Ooi

would classify your mom as a tiger mum?

Julianne

Well, I would say that my mum was very strict on... she had a very clear view of what it means to be successful and education was part of that. At the same time it was... she is quite... it kind of has to be her way. It wasn't just doing classes at school, I started getting good marks but it was also, I had to…

I was forced to play the piano from when I was 4 years old. Every day there was like a set number of hours in which I'd have to practice, but it was never around quality of time spent doing something like, it was never like work smartly. It was always the time spent would yield results. So it's about working hard more than working smart, effectively, I think. Anyway, back to the tiger mom one, I don't know, I am not sure how it is described in media or defined, but I would say tiger in the sense that it was her way. It was kind of, I didn't really have a say.

Jay Ooi

She had a lot of control of your life, your time, growing up?

Julianne

Pretty much.

Jay Ooi

Did she sort of run the household as well, like, did she make most of the decisions?

Julianne

Yes. She made most of the decisions. Pretty much.

Jay Ooi

Interesting. What do you think about that now looking back at it?

Julianne

I think she's really instilled the idea of working hard and mainly, I still do that. I think I'm grateful, I would say, for that. I would say in some respect probably deprived, because all I did was listen to the radio and draw but I'm grateful in the sense that we didn't grow up very wealthy and for me to kind of be where I am now, is due to the education piece, which is going to the opportunity class, going to the selective and being exposed to an environment where I could work towards realizing my potential.

So, grateful in that sense. Probably if I reflect now, I mean, she didn't really know better-they were refugees. So she did not know the idea of kind of how to use your networks, for example, to get far.

Jay Ooi

So, your relationship was a bit strained growing up, because you...

Julianne

Constantly, like, we're extremely different. Very, very different. Even in high school, I really like extracurricular, like doing community stuff... probably closer to my dad, my dad likes that stuff too, and for her it was kind of a waste of time to do that stuff. So even when I was in musicals, or did prefect related things, it was, "What are you doing? That is such a waste of time. You should be doing, you know, focus on your studies."

Jay Ooi

So Julianne’s mum was very controlling over her life, but it’s also all she knew to do. Learning off her peers, her mum kind of did what she saw others doing. Now Julianne is in her early 30’s, lives in Melbourne away from her family, and her relationship with her mum is a bit different.

Do you talk back now? What do you do?

Julianne

I do. An example is last night and the night before I stayed over at my parents' and it reminded of like the clashes we used to have. So now when I see her, it's really nice because I don't see her as often, it's not like frequent interactions in the house, so it's genuine quality time together. Even then I was... I would get my things and I was about to jump in the bathroom and then she would stand outside and she goes, "I don't hear the water running, have you... what are you doing in there? Like why aren't you showering yet? Are you on the dunny? Like what is going on?" and I'm like, "Holy crap."

…and then I'd get out of shower and my hair all wet and everything, and I'm about to go to bed and she's like, "Blow dry your hair, because you know, it's not good." I'm like, "No it is fine." She'd walk out and she's like, "No, I think you should blow dry hair." I'm like, "No, no I do not really feel like it." She would just sort of like wander around for a bit, and then she'll like, say it again and I think her method is the more time she'll say it, the likelihood that I'll do it. My brother had to intervene and get, "No mom." Like, "It is fine." Like, you know, but it is sort of... it's that kind of thing, maybe. So, but I'm not really rude now, I just kind of be like, "No, it's all right mom." But I do pick my battles. Otherwise, it just gets really tiring.

Jay Ooi

Now that you don't live with them, relationship is better with your mom?

Julianne

It's good with my mum. I get excited to see her.

Jay Ooi

Nice. That is good. Last question. If you had kids would you raise them in a similar way? Or what would you do same or different?

Julianne

The thing that I would do differently though is, I really like the idea of working towards a goal and kind of seeing what it is that you're working towards, or kind of planning it out. Like it does not matter what your kid does, as long as they sort of have a vision of, maybe not have vision, but like kind of have a plan. Like, if they decided they want to be like a hairdresser. Cool, that's awesome, just plan it out. Whereas I think the way that I was taught growing up was, as long as you get like 100 U-A-I all marks, you'll be successful, and that's not the case at all. Because that's not really, I mean, that's the goal, but what are you working towards? Like, what is the end goal here? That was never that clear to me. So that’s probably what I would do differently.

Jay Ooi

For those of us who grew up in Australia or other western countries, we have this unique ability to see both ways - the more eastern ways our parents may have shown us, and western values and ways of thinking, and we can sort of pick and choose what’s good from both. This kind of goal oriented parenting that Julianne talks about is one example of that, and is also what our next guest has adopted for her own children.

Beverly

I'm Beverly. I was born in the Philippines, but Chinese ancestry and Chinese parents, but born in the Philippines. Moved to Australia when I was five and I have three boys and married to a garden variety, Ozzie. And those are his words, not mine.

Jay Ooi

Okay, so what does that mean? Garden variety?

Beverly

Typical Anglo-Saxon Caucasian Australian person.

Jay Ooi

Beverley doesn’t think too much of the term Tiger Mum, but she’s had many other people in her life describe her as such.

Beverly

Friends, my husband, my sisters who don't have children yet.

Jay Ooi

But she is very involved in her kids’ lives.

Beverly

We want them to do well academically. We like to nurture their talents. I think we're probably maybe goal-focused parents, I suppose...We don't want them to be spoilt. We want them to be respectful. Probably not too dissimilar from what most parents want.

Jay Ooi

So maybe not a stereotypical tiger mum, more a modern day, westernised Tiger mum.

Beverly

I think I'm a parent that wants to see my children always doing their best. I want them to have lots of experiences, not just in their own community, so we travel with them a lot.

My kids love soccer, that is their passion. They would be out playing soccer every day if they wanted to, so from a very young age we got them involved in club soccer.

We try to invest in things that they've initially chosen, but if you're going to do it, do it well, in my opinion, right?

Because they say, "Oh, I want to be a soccer player when I grow up." "Great, that's what you wanna do? You've gotta work for it." So long as their academic side also doesn't slip up.

Jay Ooi

Of course, doing well academically is still important to Beverley.

Beverly

So that's important to us as well because unfortunately I think the world is just becoming much, much more competitive, especially now. I feel like it's much more competitive for our kids and I think you have to prepare them for that. And that might mean that you've got to show that you've got to put the work in and that sometimes might mean some tutoring help if you need it because you're lagging behind here and here, so that it doesn't get worse. You know?

Jay Ooi

Ah tutoring, I feel like there’s a whole other episode on this alone.

And when we talked earlier as well, you mention that it's almost a given that your kids are going to university.

Beverly

Yes. Hello?

Jay Ooi

Why is that?

Beverly

Why? Look, in a very competitive world like today, I think it's really important for them to have that higher education. Not because it's just a qualification tick box on their resume, but it's also a place to meet other like-minded individuals that are interested in whatever they're doing, so that you can start having those connections and networking.

Look, I don't know. There's a lot of jobs that probably don't require a university degree, but the ones that I'm hoping my kids will tap into will be ones that do.

Look, if they had a real adversity to higher education because their path takes them down a different route, I'm fine. For me, I have to be able to see that commitment from them, what it is. You know what I mean? Look, my eldest wants to be a soccer player right now. That's great, work on your skills, do it, work as hard as he can. But the reality is, unfortunately, Australia, there's so many kids that want to be that Ronaldo, right? That's the dream and that's fine to have that dream, but to get there at some point you've got to have some sort of a backup potentially. And I hate saying that because it sounds like you're not supporting their dream, but really at 10 they probably don't really know what they want to do yet. You still need to explore other paths.

For me university is important because that gives them that.

I think maybe it's the Asian in me, but I place such a high value on education because, to me, that knowledge is power and it gives you that ability to choose.

Jay Ooi

This idea of a better life and more opportunity, it’s all too familiar for Western children of immigrants. After all, a lot of our parents moved here because they believed life would be much better here, and often they did it for their children. And sometimes this desire for a better life manifests in ways that as kids, we don’t always like or understand, like that of a tiger mother. But actually, this stereotypical tiger mum isn’t as common as we think, especially in the west. I know that my parents raised me much more Australian than they would have if we were living in Malaysia, and I know this to be true of many of my friends too. In fact, one research paper studying Asian American mums found that most actually adapted to American society and didn’t raise their kids like a typical tiger mum because they realised life and culture is different in America, and I think we can make the same parallel in Australia. And Beverley is a great example of this - she really does try to strike a balance.

Beverly

there's the extremes where there are moms out there that are like, "Study 10 hours a night," and A’s every year. My dad was like that. I remember I'd bring home the report card and it was all A's. I might get one B or an A minus, and he goes, "Where's the plus?" It was never, didn't see the A. What he saw was lacking.

Jay Ooi

Did that instill in you you have to do well?

Beverly

I think it gave me this achievement focus. I want to do well. I don't think you've always got to be the best and I think you have to fail sometimes and that's okay. I think grit's really important, right?

Jay Ooi

Mm-hmm

Beverly

That's what I tried to instill in my kids too, grit and resilience because you will fail. And right now, in the Australian culture, or in society today, we try to reward our kids for participation. It drives me insane. Club soccer, everybody gets a trophy, everybody gets one. I get it, I get it. Okay, we want to make the kids feel good about participation, but the process of participation and playing in a team should be the reward. There should still be some recognition for the kids that have put the extra effort in and have done well because they are top of the ladder... You've got to recognize it. Some kids win, some kids lose.

Losing, there's nothing wrong with it. Failure is actually the best lesson because it shows you how to do something better next time. I'm happy for my kids to fail now, so that they can make the right choices later. Right?

I think you've got to raise your child to be whole. Look, if they're the best pianist at the age of five, or 10, or 11, or whatever, that's great. But if they can't interact with people, if they can't be respectful, if they can't be friendly, if they can't have some emotional intelligence, that's only one side of the coin. I don't think it's healthy to do that and I think most mums understand that. It's just trying to get the balance right sometimes. That's the hard part, the balance.

Jay Ooi

I know this episode is a collection people’s stories and not an academic deep dive, but I think there’s still plenty we can learn from this. Yes tiger mums are real, but they’re not as common as we probably think, and even amongst them, they’re all different in their own ways. And it’s always a good reminder that our parents grew up in a different time and place, so what they value and want for us is often different from the society and culture we live in. But at the end of the day, most parents just want the best for their kids, and Tiger Mums, whether we like their parenting style or not, mostly just want this too.

That’s Asians and tiger mums.

This episode of Shoes Off was written, produced and edited by me Jay Ooi

Special thanks to everyone we spoke to for this episode Viven, Julianne and Beverley.

Transcripts are available at shoesoff.net, and you can join the conversation on facebook and instagram at shoesoffau

If you liked Shoes Off please subscribe, you can find it wherever you get your podcasts, and that friend who has a tiger mum? Let them know about the show. Thanks for listening, and catch you next episode.

Guests

Vivien Hsu

Julianne Tran

Beverly Eckett

Resources

Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother: https://www.amazon.com.au/Battle-Hymn-Tiger-Mother-Chua-ebook/dp/B004INHTK4/