S03E07 - The Running Gag of Race

January 27, 2021 Jay Ooi

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Shoes Off S03E07 - The Running Gag of Race Shoes Off

Transcript

Jay Ooi

We’ve seen the rise of many Asian comedians, with names like Hasan Minhaj, Ronny Chieng, Ali Wong and Jimmy O Yang just to name a few. And we’ve seen how these comedians use comedy to talk about race. So why is comedy being used in this way?

Lizzy Hoo

I think it's a really good vehicle, because you can talk about awkward stuff in a funny way

Jay Ooi

And what’s the experience of some Asian Australian comedians?

Harry Jun

it's that underdog thing I was like, "I'll prove them all wrong. I'm going to do it, I'll do every room and I don't care if I get rejected for years, I'm going to do it and prove them wrong."

Jay Ooi

Hello and welcome to Shoes Off, stories about Asian Australian culture. I’m Jay Ooi.

Laughing is so a part of human nature. And laughter is weirdly a way for our brains to cope with confusion - when we’re presented with something that’s not quite what we expected. In today’s episode, I want to share the stories of four Asian Australian stand up comedians, and to understand how race can be used in comedy, and how it affects the comedy scene.

Jay Ooi

So tell me, where you really the funny kid growing up or when did you realize you were funny?

Shubha Siva

I was the shy kid.

Jay Ooi

No.

Shubha Siva

Yeah. I was shy ... In terms of my cousins, my cousin group, I was the shyer one. And I would also cry a lot. Just very weepy child.

Shubha Siva

my name is Shubha and that is short for Shubhangi Sivasubramanian, but no one calls me that except my mom. Not even my dad, not even my dad calls me that. And I am Indian by heritage. I was born in this country. My accent is all wrong. Not just because of the mask I'm wearing, a literal mask not metaphoric mask, but also because I moved around a lot as a kid for my dad's work. So now I sound all Californian, but I promise you, I am just as angry at the liberal government as the rest of us.

Jay Ooi

Shubha grew up with a broken TV in her room, with 3 channels, and one of them was Comedy Central.

Shubha Siva

And so they would have comedy specials in the evening. And in that first couple of months, that's sort of how my accent changed, because I was watching the comedy specials.

Jay Ooi

Shubha started doing bits from the comedy she watched on TV at school, and even though she and the other kids didn’t quite understand everything she was saying, she found a bit of traction with some material. She kept practicing at school and ended up doing assembly announcements, but her parents weren’t always the most encouraging.

Shubha Siva

So if you're, "Oh yeah, I'm going to be a comedian." Which is what I'd already been saying at that point. They were, "What? Stanford has a really good comedy culture on campus, so if you did law school there, I think you'd have a really nice time." Or I wanted to be an Olympic swimmer and they're, "Stanford has a great swim team. That's pretty cool." I like talking on stage, "Stanford has a great debating team."

Harry Jun

I feel like not all comedians are necessarily the class clowns and are naturally funny from schools, because I know some comics who kind of might rely too much on that, and they're like, "Because I've always been a funny person." You know how people in group situations they're the funny person, you know?

Jay Ooi

Yeah.

Harry Jun

But when they bring that to the stage, it's not the same, because people have inside jokes, and people have the goodwill of knowing you when they're your friends. The audience members don't know anything about you, so you can't bank on that just charisma and history alone because you don't have history and you can't prove your charisma, so, yeah.

Jay Ooi

That’s Harry Jun, a Korean Australian who grew up in Wollongong. Harry grew up loving stand up comedy, constantly quoting Eddie Murphy’s comedy during school, but only got into stand up himself a bit later in life, starting with an open mic night.

Harry Jun

So I had no idea. I walked into this open mic with probably too much cockiness, I think, as in like, I was like, "Oh, I'm just going to give it a go. Whatever. Who cares?" Had no jokes.

Jay Ooi

Oh, really!

Harry Jun

Well this is the thing. I was the guy, I was that guy who was like, "Oh, I couldn't make people laugh that know me. I'm a charming guy," whatever. I was probably just banking on charisma alone, I think. But as soon as I got up there, because the audience is very honest, and even though I didn't know that they were all comics, I treated them as audience members, but they're still honest.

Harry Jun

So I go up there and just suck. I just suck. Because I'd meandered through what I thought was... Like I was up there and I remember thinking, "Oh my God, I have no jokes." And I was like, "Oh, no, this'll be funny." And I tell this horrible joke about a threesome. I was just like, "I don't understand how anyone would be able to do a threesome. It's just like the hand-eye coordination alone is..." And I think it got barely a laugh, and then when you're bombing, you're just like, oh, so shameful, so embarrassed. And then I heard a ding, there's a ding to tell you time's up, and I was like, "Oh, thank God," and I left. But it imbued me with a desire to be better.

Jay Ooi

Yes, despite completely bombing his first open mic, Harry was committed to doing better, and got addicted to the thrill of being on stage.

Harry Jun

It's always like a tightrope type of activity where you're like, you could have the best jokes, but it might not be your night and you can still suck, but there's a thrill in not knowing.

Jay Ooi

And it seems bombing at first is pretty common.

Aamer Rahman

My first few comedy club shows were not great. The first one was good. The second one, I remember I was going up straight after a comedian who was making jokes about Muslims, really crude shitty jokes about Muslims. I got up there, and I made fun of him, but I also... People laughed at that. But at the same time, these were the same people who had just laughed at the shitty jokes beforehand.

As my set got more and more political, it just died off. I just realized, I was just like, there's no way for me to keep doing this.

Aamer Rahman

My name's Aamer Rahman. I grew up between Australia and the Middle East. I'm a standup comedian and a writer, and I'm originally from Bangladesh.

Jay Ooi

Aamer quickly realised his type of comedy didn’t quite fit into the mainstream stand up scene since he was talking about things that were quite political, which some people viewed as serious or radical, but for Aamer?

Aamer Rahman

I just think the way that we've grown up, especially being Muslim, I don't think these things are considered serious to us day to day. This is just the stuff that we're talking about all the time.

Jay Ooi

When Aamer started doing comedy over 10 years ago, there weren’t a lot of people doing the sort of political or ethnic comedy that he was doing.

Aamer Rahman

Yeah, there was a lot of hunger for that kind of content. But also you realize very quickly that you have a very loyal support base, but it's also very, very small, especially in a place like Australia. You reach capacity very quickly.

Jay Ooi

So because of his quite niche audience and political comedy, Aamer has found it difficult to find work.

Aamer Rahman

I can see the people that I started in the industry with. We all started in the same place, all things being equal. But 13 years later, I can count literally on one hand the opportunities that I've been offered by anyone in the industry, whereas... I'm not...

Aamer Rahman

This is not a shot at people who have had opportunities, but I think it's just reflective of a systemic thing. I'm not saying that I'm better than them or that I'm the greatest comedian, but there's people in the industry where I can be like, okay. I'm old enough now. I'm almost 40, where I can just be like, all right, I'm not... No fake humility. I'm at least as good as this guy, but our careers are just not comparable on any level. The reality that I've always got attention from outside Australia far more than I have within Australia.

Jay Ooi

So what about Shubha’s experience being booked?

Shubha Siva

So if you're a person of color, they're not going to book another person of color on the same lineup, because that's a waste. Because you need to make sure that all your lineups look, quote, unquote, look diverse. So if you're a woman, and you're a woman of color, you're twofer, right?

Shubha Siva

Or the wonderful Nina Oyama, right, is a talent in her own right, and of course she's doing so well at the ABC and beyond. She is a queer identifying, I'm pretty sure she's Bi. Sorry if she's not. But she's a triple threat. Triple threat. And she has the added bonus of being half white, so it's palatable. So I've never had the pleasure of being on the same lineup as her.

Shubha Siva

So people would like to space that out. Then with women, they would try to space that out as well. So there are times where I've heard this more than once, where we meet and then a different chick and the other chick would be white and I wasn't and people would be like, "Oh my God, this is a really diverse lineup, two women and a person of color." And I'm like, "Sounds like you have three different ... that's just two people. That's just two people. It's not a really diverse lineup. What is wrong with you guys?"

Jay Ooi

So yes, there has definitely been more of a focus on diversity recently, but it can be almost superficial. Bookers need to make sure each lineup looks diverse, so minorities get conveniently spaced out. It’s good and bad - it means that minorities are getting booked, but it also means they might not meet each other since they’re often booked on different nights. And another concern?

Aamer Rahman

My fear is, as much as this kind of social justice discourse has become more popular, it can also get co-opted very, very quickly. You're going to see or we are seeing an explosion of multicultural content. But is it really subversive? A lot of it might not be.--

Jay Ooi

And Shubha has noticed it’s a bit different across the ocean.

Shubha Siva

First of all, it's way easier to get booked and to get taken seriously in the US. In Australia, I've done radio, I've done TV. I've done proper paid gigs. I've had like a salary. Someone has paid me a salary to be a comedian. It says comedian on my tax return and I actually had to pay tax. Comedians don't usually pay tax. We never earn enough. It was a thing. And I'm still getting booked second spot on the lineup.

Jay Ooi

What?

Shubha Siva

Sometimes they'll be like, "Oh yeah. So this beginner will get seven minutes. This beginner will get 10 minutes. And like, blah, blah, blah. And Shubha, you can do five minutes at the top if you don't mind."

Shubha Siva

Whereas in America, I showed up and I was like, "Hi, I'm a comedian. This is my show reel. I have done these gigs and this is my radio stuff and this is my TV stuff. Please can I come do some time on your show?"

Shubha Siva

And all of New York was like, "Yeah, sure." Gotham Comedy Club is like a big, fancy comedy club. They were like, "Yeah, come do .... sorry, because you contacted us a little bit late. We're putting you on this lineup instead, but we'll give you whatever, 10, 15 minutes. Is that fine?" And I was like, "Yeah, that sounds fine." Then I made a good impression on that guy. And he was like, "Hey, we have a newcomer showcase but our host has had to be booked," because it was Christmas time or whatever. "We've not got a host for it but would you like to headline one of the shows or whatever?" I was like, "Hey, could I host that show or whatever?" And they were like, "Yeah, dude, come host the show. We can't pay you though. Is that okay?" And I'm like, "Yeah, it's fine. I'm not on a work visa. Can't do it."

Shubha Siva

I hosted that show and they were like, "That was great. Just host the rest of them." And I got a regular gig within a week of showing up to New York just because they saw me and I was good enough for them to trust me. But it's not like I was better there than I am here. It's the same version and it's a higher caliber of comedy in that city.

Jay Ooi

Yeah, definitely.

Shubha Siva

But somehow, even though it's a higher caliber of comedy in that city and I'm considered market viable there, I'm not here.

Jay Ooi

Yes Shubha found it more difficult getting booked in Australia, partly because our comedy scene is smaller and so it’s a little more exclusive. And Aamer experienced the same thing.

Aamer Rahman

When one of my videos went viral, I got an email from one of the major late night shows in the US. I think they just assumed that I was in the US for whatever reason. They're like, "Hey, can you send us a tape? We would love to have you on."

Aamer Rahman

I was like, "Actually, I live in Australia."

Jay Ooi

Yes a couple of Aamer’s videos went viral, one on punching Nazis, and one on reverse racism, and it got him a lot of attention from overseas, but in Australia?

Jay Ooi

They got a bit of press. You mentioned that someone from the US reached out. I think I saw some interviews from the UK as well. Did you get any viral press in Australia?

Aamer Rahman

Never, not that I can remember.

Jay Ooi

So both Shubha and Aamer found more traction overseas than they did here locally. Aamer said he had such a great reception when he went to London as well, so why is it harder here in Australia?

Aamer Rahman

they're used to hearing this kind of conversation. The conversation's been advanced for a lot longer over there.

Shubha Siva

I really think it is just like bros looking out for bros. I think, especially because we just live in a small pond so there's not enough space for people to overcrowd the top. There are still 35 year old, 40 year old, 45 year old comics in Australia who had a crack at the overseas market maybe when they were younger, and then didn't like it as much. Came back and now they won't move. So there isn't space for other people at the top.

Shubha Siva

More importantly, if there is space, people want their friends to come with them even if their friends maybe are not as good, right? Because the comfort of being part of a good collaborative team means that you can get work done even if that work is not the best work. It's still work and content is more important than quality. So of course you get the same six people working on projects and all six of those people, they all have the same style of comedy.

Harry Jun

Like you kind of don't want to be booked because you're Asian. You don't want to be the diversity booking. You don't want to be part of a organization's structure to seem progressive. You just want to be booked because you're funny.

Harry Jun

And I flip-flop all the time because I'm a big fiend for stage time.

Harry Jun

But there are some rooms that were like, you know, I kind of look around and be like, "Oh, I'm the diversity booking."

Jay Ooi

Yeah.

Harry Jun

"Oh, no." And look, I don't think heaps of rooms are like that and I don't think that a lot of the bookings that I've got were like that, because for the most part, I feel like, I hope that I got booked because I'm funny, but occasionally it'll flare up and you're like, "Oh." It doesn't feel good. You feel like a bit of a sellout. It doesn't feel pure.

Lizzy Hoo

For me, I think I've been pretty fortunate in, I think I arrived on the scene at a really good time. It was sort of when, I don't know, more women started to do it. I guess there was this whole diversity conversation happening and I came in at just the right time. So getting gigs for me was okay. Often rooms, they want more women. They say it's hard to find, it's not. But yeah, I've been fortunate in the gigs that I've got, definitely.

Lizzy Hoo

Hello. I'm Lizzy Hoo. My cultural background is... My dad, he is Chinese Malaysian. And my mum, she is Aussie with Irish background, from Country Queensland, actually. So it's a strange mix.

Jay Ooi

Do you ever feel like the token female or Asian, or both?

Lizzy Hoo

Yeah. I'm double box, so yeah I do feel like that sometimes but I'm trying to get over that because it can be a bit, like if you think that of yourself then, I don't know, that's not really good for you.

Lizzy Hoo

I feel the pressure to represent women more than Asians, because often you're maybe the only woman or one of two women on the line up and that pressure I feel of, "Okay, I'm going to be either the girl who did well or the girl who wasn't very good." Yeah.

Jay Ooi

Lizzy actually has a joke about her parents, playing on the fact that her dad is Asian and mum is white.

Jay Ooi

Why is this funny?

Lizzy Hoo

Well, it's funny because it's not what people consider the norm. And I know it because growing up it happened all the time to be like, "Oh, your mum's white? Oh, your mum's white?" I'm like, "Yeah." To me it was normal, but to everyone else it wasn't, and I knew that so when I joke about it I know that people are going to know what I'm trying to do here.

Jay Ooi

The joke works because we are so used to the interracial pairing being the other way around - a white man with an asian woman. And this is something a lot of comedians do - they play with things we’re familiar with but with a twist. And when it comes to race, comedy can be a great way to tackle topics and issues that are harder to digest otherwise, like an access point to territory we don’t tread often.

Lizzy Hoo

I think it's a really good vehicle, because you can talk about awkward stuff in a funny way and it's kind of like, sometimes I like to sort of just throw something out there, it's like, "Oh. Think about that." And then I'll leave it, which I don't know if it's intentional, but listening back and even some reviews that I've had and other people telling me, they're like, "Oh, sometimes you just put stuff out there and don't really address it." And I'm like, "Well, I kind of just want to plant the seed and be like 'You think about that.'"

Lizzy Hoo

Someone asked me before like, "Do you think comedy can change opinions?" And there's two schools of thought on that. They're like, "Oh no, it's just comedy." But I think it can, especially if you're showing them a perspective that they've never heard before. Or, I use the example of going to Dee Why RSL, and maybe this is the first time they're having that discussion or hearing this perspective, and I'm like, "Well, at least I did that. If they didn't like it, bleurgh, whatever."

Jay Ooi

So comedy can be a great tool to get people listening to a different perspective. We’ve seen many successful comedians like John Oliver, Hasan Minhaj and Trevor Noah using comedy to talk about bigger issues, whether they be politics, climate change, gender and race. And jokes about these topics can get audiences to question their thoughts on them by pointing out some of the parts that maybe don’t make sense, or by subverting particular stereotypes. And when you think about it, comedy requires surprise, or discomfort in order to be funny - the expected isn’t something to laugh at. And so these topics make for great comedy. And when it comes to race, it can also create a sense of community or shared experience where we can laugh at something that we get.

Lizzy Hoo

Oh, I think growing up with an ethic parent, and I say you can draw similarities between having a Chinese dad or having a Greek dad or having an Italian... There's sort of those audience, an ethnic audience, will get it and I like that.

Jay Ooi

And for Lizzy who didn’t grow up around many Asians, it was a realisation for her when she’d do jokes about her own experience and realise that it’s a common experience amongst other Asians.

Lizzy Hoo

I grew up in Brisbane, I didn't have many Asian friends. Yeah, it wasn't a thing, and now that I'm older I can have those conversations and I think onstage I was having conversations with people without knowing that and other Asians would come up to me after the show and I found it really satisfying when they would say, "Oh, that was really relatable." You're like, "Oh, so you get that too?" It was a bit of a realization for me.

Jay Ooi

And Aamer also sees comedy as a way to talk about shared experiences.

Aamer Rahman

When I couldn't find anything in Australia, listening to music from the US or listening to comedy from the US and the UK. The biggest thing it gave me was, Oh, okay, I'm not imagining this. This is a real thing. And so, I know there's people out there who experience racism daily at work, or life, or when they witness what's happening overseas or whatever.

Aamer Rahman

It makes them upset, and it makes them angry. But then, people don't always have a way of expressing it. A lot of my comedy, a lot of it really is comebacks that I wish I'd had in a given conversation. People don't realize that, but often, something that I do is a result of either experiencing or seeing my friends experience the same horrible interaction, like reverse racism or punching a Nazi. This thing where you just can't explain on the spot why the other person is wrong. I think that's what ends up in my comedy.

Jay Ooi

Yeah. Do you think comedy or your comedy or one or the other has the power or can change people's perceptions?

Aamer Rahman

Not mine. I always say this, I think if a racist person came and watched me do comedy, they would leave being more racist. I know, because that's actually happened, because people do this thing where they bring their white boyfriend or their white friend or whatever, and then they send me... Not people that I know, but they'll message me later and be like, "Hey, my white boyfriend and I haven't stopped fighting since we came to your show," and all this kind of stuff.

Aamer Rahman

I realize the importance of making something for... People say preaching to the choir. I'm like, yes, 100%. You know what, the choir needs to be happy. It's not easy being in the choir.

Jay Ooi

So whilst race in comedy can be good in bringing people together, for Aamer, it’s not about being inclusive of everyone, but just making good jokes for one particular audience, which can be polarising for others. But on the other hand, comedy can be used to perpetuate stereotypes.

Harry Jun

let's say, like if there's an Asian comic in the audience and, for example, they're doing race jokes. I personally don't like race jokes that kind of merely present a stereotype, and I'm not saying I'm the best at it either, I'm very new at comedy as well, but I like to think that a good joke about race makes you kind of laugh and think and it's challenging a stereotype or it's doing X, Y and Z. But there are some comics out there that do race jokes that just present a stereotype, and you kind of feel like, "Well, it's pretty shallow," and you're also maybe exacerbating. You're enabling people to laugh at a stereotype.

Harry Jun

So if a comic who does those kinds of joke is right before me, it's almost you feel like it'll be a bit harder to be like, "Well, I'm going to subvert that, and I'm going to challenge that," because they'll probably assume that we look similar, that I'll be on the same team and I'll be doing the same kind of stuff. And that's probably also insecurity on my part. If they do those jokes and they really crush and do well, it shouldn’t affect me.

Lizzy Hoo

When I first started I would do my dad's accent, and I've always done his accent, because when I do the stories about him I always do his accent. But now I don't want to because I'm like, "Oh, I don't know if people are just laughing at his accent or him." Yeah. So when I do jokes about him and I just do dialogue that he would say, I pull back a bit.

Shubha Siva

There are still people who are like, "Oh yeah, do the Apu voice. Oh yeah, do the Russell Peters bit." It's like, "Okay, why am I doing someone else's bit now? I'm not going to do someone else's bit for you." Or people who really like it when I put on my mom's ... quote unquote, mom. It's not even really how she talks, she went to private school. I went to a public school. So, she's posh but I'll put on her voice if I do a bit where she's giving me advice and people love that. They're like, "Why don't you just do a whole show about you just doing your mom's voice?" But the idea is not that the accent is funny. The idea is that that's my lived experience.

Shubha Siva

It's my lived experience that my mom has an Indian accent so I do that, but that's not the butt of the joke, the butt of the joke is not that she's Indian. The butt of the joke is not that I'm Indian. It's that I'm at uni for 15 years and they hate it. That's not the butt of the joke either, that's just the butt of my life joke.

Jay Ooi

So race jokes, even from people of that race, can end up reinforcing stereotypes, and essentially giving people permission to laugh at that stereotype, not because of any truth underneath it.

Shubha Siva

I want them to laugh because the joke is funny but I think the joke is the same joke if the joke is always that it, "Oh, it's Indian." The punchline becomes boring.

Jay Ooi

I’m sure many of us can remember Russell Peters and his comedy from the mid 2000’s. It kind of exploded online, but watching it again now, it’s this exact sort of comedy that I don’t think would go down as well today.

Aamer Rahman

I think it's a little bit dated now. I just think, whatever you want to call it, culture or whatever, has exploded. There's so much more discussion about... When content gets produced, there's so much more discussion about it, analyzing it and dissecting it. Everything goes through a lot more filters now. But definitely, back then, when that first Russell Peters thing leaked online, we all watched a leaked version of it. We'd never seen anything like it. It was really amazing.

Harry Jun

But I've walked away from gigs that I've done really well at and felt bad about it because I know there's a feeling, a sense that they're laughing at me, and again, like I talked about when they would go home after the gig, they're not going to be talking about how this person challenged the stereotype, they're going to be talking about how, "Oh, Asians are like this. Ha-ha-ha-ha." And then the worst is if they tell their friends. They'll be like, "Oh, yeah, this Asian comic, blah blah blah blah blah." And that's spreads in a negative way.

Jay Ooi

But apart from telling jokes explicitly about race, what else do Asian comedians bring? Well for Aamer, who grew up between the Middle East and Australia, it gave him a different perspective.

Aamer Rahman

because I had something to compare Australia to, because I've never lived in Bangladesh. But growing up in the Middle East, I was able to go there a lot. We would spend three months there during summer, which in Australia is... Being an immigrant in Australia is really hard, because it's really expensive to even visit your relatives. I felt like I got a lot more exposure to my culture. I had exposure to different Muslim countries. Compared to my friends, other Bangladeshi kids or other South Asian kids who were born in Australia, I just felt like I had this other reference point where I was like, you know what, something is not right here.

Jay Ooi

And for Shubha, she ran her own room Wolf Comedy for a few years aiming to bring a more intersectional experience to the stage.

Shubha Siva

It's not about talking about why you're different, it's about orienting yourself within that difference and then talking about everything. That is going to give everyone the correct experience of being part of a multicultural, multidimensional society. When you talk about your race in comedy, when you talk about your gender in comedy, sure you're including some people, but you're really othering yourself.

Shubha Siva

I don't really like that. I like the idea that when people look at me, they don't know that we're the same. Then I talk to them and they realize that we are.

Shubha Siva

Just as an example, every subculture has vernacular that is so commonplace to them and when people use their own language to talk to you, normal stories become elevated. This is why every awesome story that you've ever heard from an Irish person sounds so boring when an American person tells you the same story. A big part of Tommy Tiernan or Dylan Moran, who are two Irish comedians of great fame, all of their stories are funny because they're talking to you in very Irish-y terms. So just on a base level, its cultural idiosyncrasies that come through in expression make anything you're expressing slightly more rich.

Shubha Siva

So that's one layer and then the second layer is from that viewpoint, from that lens of perception, you're going to have a different take on the same thing. When you look at me, you're seeing something. I only ever look in the mirror, so I don't really know how my face looks, but what you think I look like and what I think I look like are totally different.

Shubha Siva

So when I talk to you about, "Oh, my eyebrows look crazy." You're like, "Girl, they do look crazy, but you don't even know what style of crazy they are. Let me tell you what they look like from the side." We're still talking about the same thing, but that just subtle 45 degrees shift really, I don't know, opens up a totally new dimension. It just makes everything more interesting and it means that you're laughing about something you didn't even consider but once you see it, you can't unsee it. The pure novelty of hearing someone from a different cultural perspective as you is not that they're from a different cultural perspective, it's that they are revealing to you a cultural perspective that you have that you didn't know.

Jay Ooi

So it's not like, "Laugh at my culture." It's like, "Laugh because I'm showing you something that you've never been thought about or seen before."

Shubha Siva

Yeah, "I'm telling you something you didn't know you knew." Yeah, does that make sense?

Jay Ooi

Yeah and I can only see this because I'm actually from a different group.

Shubha Siva

Yeah, "I'm outside of you."

Jay Ooi

So this took me a little while to understand, so let me try and explain it. It doesn’t have to be talking about how we’re different, it can just be something we have in common, but we have a slightly different perspective on - maybe we notice something and can point that out in a way that’s completely new, yet completely familiar, we’ve just never seen it in that way before. This is the perspective that minorities can bring to comedy. Our unique point of view.

Harry Jun

I guess sometimes I want to put the audience in my shoes, to see it from my perspective. I want them to laugh, obviously, because it's meant to be funny, but laughing in a way that's supportive of just like... You know what? If I'm outraged, then they're laughing. They're not laughing at me and at my expense, they're laughing at how outrageous it is and maybe laughing at how unfair it is.

Jay Ooi

And like with everything, we can support diversity and intersectionality but going to these shows and following diverse comedians.

Lizzy Hoo

if you've only ever watched comedy on screen, please go to a show.

Lizzy Hoo

it's just such a different vibe. You've got roomful of people, you're all laughing. It's just such a fun night. Before I started doing comedy I would go, or when I first got interested, I'd go to like some smaller rooms in Sydney and watch and I was like, "This is the best night." You can just go, have a couple of drinks or not, and just laugh. And you leave feeling great.

Harry Jun

I think also in terms of a diversity of flavors and stories and all this stuff, maybe there's not enough of that as well that makes people want to go out. The worst would be if an audience member went out to see comedy once and was like, "I had a great time, but I've done it. I've seen comedy now." And it's like, "No, it changes all the time." And I don't even know how to change that. I guess having more diverse lineups, but just changing the culture of like, we want more stuff to do outside.

Harry Jun

It's tough in a pandemic. Now's not the time. But yeah, I would love for... I think in New York and all these places, they've got rooms that run till 2:00 AM and audiences aren't tired and they keep going

Shubha

if you're at home, look up comedians from international performing places, Malaysian comics, Indian comics, South American comics are amazing. There's South African comics are really good. So we all know Trevor Noah, The Daily Show, but South Africa has a pop in comedy scene. Just make yourself acquainted with a greater breadth of comedians because you will laugh more. It's funny. They have shit you've not seen. And they're talking about stuff that you understand, but no one has ever talked to you about.

Jay Ooi

Yes we can broaden our comedic intake even in a pandemic, right from our couch. Often we’re so stuck in our western bubble that we forget there are so many other countries and cultures with good media and content that’s worth consuming. So let’s support some of our Asian comedians in Asia. And let’s go to shows here to support a more diverse scene, and let’s talk about the comedy we’ve seen, what was funny, and maybe think about why it was funny. Comedy is after all, a great way of pointing out problems and hypocrisies and weird nuances we never would have noticed, all whilst making us laugh. And what a way to learn about culture and the world than through something that brings us joy? To research this episode, I’ve gone and watched a bunch of Asian comedians, and I gotta say, there’s a lot of great stuff out there, and I kind of miss laughing in a space together with a group of people.

To wrap up, I asked Shubha what she loves about being a Asian Australian comedian.

Shubha

I think I love that being Asian specifically is really comforting in that there's no fear about what if I fail because the entire culture... I know, in the media we like to portray Asian people as being failure phobic. It's not that we're failure phobic, it's that we know what it takes to work from failure, which is why we like to avoid it. But I think it gives you greater resilience because you're like, "Okay, if this doesn't work out, I'll quit it all and become a very, very rich attorney." You always know that there is a way out. And the freedom that that gives you is really huge. You also get, you have inbuilt work ethic, which is great. Once your parents support you, they support you massively. I don't know that other cultures have that.

Shubha

I think everybody loves to hear the narrative around Indian parents are angry at their kids for Bend it Like Beckhaming, or whatever, bending it like Beckham. But even that movie tells you when her dad figures out that she was really passionate about it, he fully supports her. And so there's all of the wonderful parts about being Asian come with you when you do anything. And it's the same with comedy. So you come home 11:00 PM after a gig and your mom's got full meal on the table for you. She's sitting there and she's like, "Yeah, I'll heat everything up for you," or "How was it? Did you do okay? All right, great. You put everything in the microwave, you'll be fine." And then she goes to bed and that's so encouraging and makes you realize that you don't have to quit just because you bombed once.

Jay Ooi

Yeah.

Shubha

That's really cool. In terms of performance, I think the fact that we've been spending our entire lives marketing ourselves to people, there's a part of being a person of color is that you have to convince people to like you. You always feel a little bit worried that you have to, or not even worried. You're convinced that you have to show people that you're one of the good ones. And everybody feels that pressure. When you're anything but white, you always have to convince people that you're one of the good ones. And you're seeing people now, even in the Black Lives Matter movement, you're seeing white people confused by the fact that they have to convince everyone else that they're one of the good ones.

Shubha

They've never had to do that culturally. But because we have, it means that there's a different way you're approaching audiences that makes them instantly like you, because you just have practiced that so much. It never feels forced to do crowd work because you know exactly what it's like to cold call anyone because your whole life has felt one big cold call. I really like that it feels like being a person of color has been practice for being a comedian.

Jay Ooi

This episode of Shoes Off was written, produced and edited by me, Jay Ooi.

Special thanks to all the guests in today’s episode: Shubha Siva, Harry Jun, Aamer Rahman and Lizzy Hoo, as well as Tina who I couldn’t fit in to this episode.

In the show notes for this episode at shoesoff.net you can find all the references, as well as links to all three guests’ instagrams: @lolshubz, @harry.jun.harry and @lizzyhoo.

I had a blast talking to all three of htese people, but I think you’ll particularly enjoy my chat with Shubha, so I’ll be releasing the almost unedited interview as a bonus episode - almost unedited because we got into some things we probably shouldn’t be sharing publicly.

The score is by Avik Chari and the episode artwork is by Alli Chang, thank you both.

Who are your favourite Asian comedians? Let me know @shoesoffau on facebook and instagram.

If you liked Shoes Off please subscribe, we’re on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you’re listening to it right now, or head to shoesoff.net

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Thanks, and catch you next episode.