Season 2 Recap-isode

Transcript

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
It sounds like you've gone through puberty between season one and two. Your voice sounds different, what's up with that?

Jay Ooi:
I think you mean the opposite of puberty. I feel like I got a bit more treble in my voice. So, this was a little COVID impulse buy. I bought a new desk mic. The mic that you're hearing right now is what I use when I go out and record interviews with people, but when I record my bits at home, I didn't want to have to keep setting up this mic. So I bought a USB mic that just sits at my desk at all times now.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
I bought clothes and you bought a mic.

Jay Ooi:
Yeah. COVID was just a really good excuse to work a lot more on the podcast.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
I was going to ask, because it seems like you ended up releasing the episodes for season two a lot faster than you initially anticipated.

Jay Ooi:
Definitely. And to be fair, a part of that was because I did this ep on COVID and I wanted to get that out as quickly as I could. But being at home all the time meant that I had more time to research topics, and because I wasn't able to do interviews in person, I did a lot of them over Zoom. Which is also why some of the eps don't sound as good as I would like, but that was all we were allowed to do at the time.

Jay Ooi:
Hello, and welcome to Shoes Off. I'm Jay Ooi.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
And I'm Thinesh.

Jay Ooi:
Thinesh, who are you?

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
I am a lawyer, a creator, and Tamil Daddy.

Jay Ooi:
What's a Tamil Daddy?

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
I'm a dominatrix that makes people grapple with their internalised racism and forces them to learn about critical race theory.

Jay Ooi:
Kinky.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
Very.

Jay Ooi:
And so T, what are we doing today?

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
We're journeying back in time to recap on season two and have a bit of a reflection.

Jay Ooi:
And see who we are inside?

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
Yes, cue Mulan.

Jay Ooi:
Insert copyright music here. Is that creepy? Me whispering into the mic?

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
Just a bit. Shoes Off is now an ASMR show.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
First season topics seemed very East Asian oriented, how has that shifted?

Jay Ooi:
Are you offended by that?

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
I was very offended, because you kept saying Asian, but it clearly did not include me and other brown people.

Jay Ooi:
Yeah, I know. I'm so aware of this, and I didn't do as much season two as I would have liked. I really would have liked to have had less East Asian stories. But it just so happens that the people I found, which meant the episodes that I completed for season two, were still a little bit East Asian focused.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
Chinese.

Jay Ooi:
Little bit Chinese. There was diversity, but not as much as I would like. Look, I'm pretty much a one man team making this show, and I just happened to find the people for the episodes that were more East Asian focused first. And so, those are the episodes that came together, and therefore those were the episodes that got released as part of season two.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
So it's kind of like when producers say, "We just couldn't find any Asian actors to play Mulan."

Jay Ooi:
It's exactly that.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
"And that's why we hired Scarlett Johansson."

Jay Ooi:
Yeah. No, you're right. I have not been actively enough looking for more representation in the show, which I am working on. I feel like I sound like Josh Thomas right now.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
Yeah.

Jay Ooi:
Where I'm like, "It's just been so hard, we just can't find the right talent." That's not what's happened. It's just, the people that I've been put in touch with for these episodes just so happen to be a little more East Asian focused. And so, those are the episodes that got finished. And I could have just sat on those episodes and looked for more diversity episodes to release as part of this season, but I just actually wanted to get the season out. And so, sorry, coming soon.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
No, it was good that you brought out a season, because I feel like it came out at a good time with Coronavirus. I think we're all clamouring for content. When I first saw your episode, your first episode being about COVID-19, initially I was a bit apprehensive because I think a lot of us felt like there's so much COVID-19 Coronavirus content. But, what was really fresh about this episode was that COVID-19 has impacted racialised communities in a very different way from other communities. And so, your episode was amazing in that regard. Can you talk a bit more about why you wanted to do this episode?

Jay Ooi:
Yeah, it's really funny because I actually didn't want to do this episode.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
For that reason?

Jay Ooi:
Yeah. Because so many people, when COVID-19 was happening, it was like, "Jay, you need to do an episode on the racism that's happening because of COVID-19." And in my head I was like, "Yeah, but what's the story here?" Right? It's like, we know that this stuff is happening, we see it. And we know that it's bad. And to me, I was like, "That's a five minute episode, how much can I talk about racism being bad because of COVID-19?"

Jay Ooi:
I just felt like it wasn't interesting enough. Because we all knew about it already, it was in the media, there was knowledge in Australia that COVID-19 was causing racist attacks to happen on Asian people.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
So what changed?

Jay Ooi:
What changed was someone was like, "You should look at the history of racism in Australia. Because that's why we still have COVID-19 racism today." And I was like, "Oh, that is a good angle. I am going to go down this history route..." Route, route?

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
Tomato, tomato.

Jay Ooi:
Yeah, sure. Okay.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
Potato, potato.

Jay Ooi:
"... and find out how that has impacted the way that Asians are treated today in Australia." Which has been heightened, because of COVID-19. So yeah, once I actually went down this history rabbit hole, it was super, super insightful and interesting to me personally. And so, I hope it was to everyone as well.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
What did you learn about the history of racism in Australia? What stood out to you?

Jay Ooi:
I think we all have a little bit of understanding that our colonial history in Australia is racist. But I don't think we have the understanding of how it was racist to Chinese people and the extent that it was racist towards Chinese people. So, that's what I learnt, was how they pretty much put laws in place to exclude Chinese people from Australia. And how Chinese people were segregated to certain parts of gold mines where maybe Europeans had been before, or maybe not. They were just like, the worst parts of the gold mines. And they would still do really well, because Chinese people work really hard, right?

Jay Ooi:
But I had no idea of the extent of this racism. And with all these policies that they put in place, which then culminated in the White Australia Policy, when we federated in 1901. And our federation wanting to happen, partly to exclude Chinese people, right? We as a country, can have a national policy to exclude Chinese people. I did not know about this. And this was quite sad to me, to know that this is our history. And then to realise that the White Australian Policy has only been abolished completely for about 50 years.

Jay Ooi:
And so, when we talk about Australia being a multicultural country, yeah, we are in many ways. But to think that this history of racism that we have has just disappeared because the White Australia Policy is gone, when you understand our history, you can see that this view doesn't really make sense anymore.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
I think in some ways also, the White Australia Policy, whilst not in law, still exists in the culture. Because ideas around what it means to be Australian still navigates around original ideas of white Australia. And so, that kind of reiterates your point about Australian ideas of multiculturalism, which is that it really isn't a multicultural society because it doesn't celebrate all cultures. You're accepting a society based on your proximity to whiteness.

Jay Ooi:
Yeah. Which I didn't mention too much in the episode, but we talk about that in other episodes subtly, and we will definitely talk about that more in next season. But yeah, it's a very good point. And one person wrote in as well, they're like, "When that one historian likened Australia to the Deep South and Apartheid, that was very eye opening." And we don't make that comparison here, because we think we're not racist here. Australians don't think we are racist. There's more awareness of racism in America than there is here.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
Especially post BLM, I think there's much more of a conversation which is probably what's causing the divide there.

Jay Ooi:
Yeah.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
And I don't think Australia's discourse around multiculturalism and racism has come to a head the way it has in America. I think a lot less people acknowledge it here.

Jay Ooi:
Yeah. And so, these comparisons to America and Apartheid really shows us the extent of how institutionalised the racism was here. And I think that's why people found this ep quite confronting.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
There's another episode which really resonated with me, which was your episode two, on saving face. As a Tamil person, and as a lot of other South Asians in particular, saving face has become such a huge part of our community when avoiding... Or when dealing with familial issues, especially if you're queer, or doing anything out of the norm of what is expected of a Tamil boy.

Jay Ooi:
A good little Tamil boy.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
Exactly. And it was really cool to see how this idea of saving face shows up in different parts of the very diverse Asian community. How did you team up with Shona when doing this episode?

Jay Ooi:
So I met Shona last year, actually when I launched this podcast. And she's a Korean-Australian writer who focuses on diversity issues. She'd written this great article on saving face, and how it often hides sexual harassment and abuse and depression. And she reached out to turn this into a podcast episode, and it's just the perfect topic, because these are real stories from the people that she interviewed. And you hear them, and it's again, quite confronting, some of the things that were said. But all credit to Shona, because she did the research, she spoke to all the people. She pretty much wrote this episode. Without her, I wouldn't have been able to do it, to be honest. Because I wouldn't have known about this in the first place, and I wouldn't have done all the work that she had already done for this.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
What was the response like?

Jay Ooi:
I think because the whole concept of saving face is you don't talk about things, the fact that we were talking about it meant that people really related to it. So I had people who wrote in and said that it made them change the way they think about certain aspects of their culture. Which is exactly what we were trying to do. And I also had people who wrote in and said, "You know what, Jay? Saving face is so much more than this. There's this idea of honour, there are good aspects of saving face too." And I do want to acknowledge these things, I realise these are true. Saving face is a huge topic, really, really big.

Jay Ooi:
We talked about one very specific part of saving face in this episode. And the plan is to cover more of it in the future. Just to whet your appetite, when I was researching this concept of saving face, when you think about it, it exists in a lot of cultures. It's not necessarily an Asian thing, it plays out uniquely in Asian cultures. But for example, even in the West. When you're embarrassed, you literally cover your face with your hands. And that is a version of saving face. In fact, many cultures actually use the same word face in their own language, to refer to this practice, or these concepts.

Jay Ooi:
So, there's honestly so much more that we can talk about here. But this episode was just tackling one small aspect of that.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
Kind of harking back to COVID-19, the thing that we cannot stop talking about. You did an episode on international students, which this particular climate has impacted international students in a very particular way. Why did you want to do an episode on international students in Australia?

Jay Ooi:
I did most of this episode before COVID happened. And the reason why I wanted to do it at that time was that I knew that us as Australians, and especially us as Asians who grew up in Australia, we have a very unique relationship with international students. Because we have this idea already that we're not cool enough, because we're Asians, right? We're not Aussie enough. And so, when you have other people who kind of look like us, but they're not from Australia, you suddenly have to more Aussify yourself, like you'll put on a thicker accent. You won't want to associate with them, because you don't want to be lumped into the same group as them. We can be friends with German international students, American international students, totally fine. But not the Mainland Chinese ones. Not the Malaysian Chinese ones. Not the Indonesians. Because they're like, real Asians, and they're weird and Australians don't like them, so I don't want to be part of that crew.

Jay Ooi:
And when I thought about that, I was like, "That's really sad." And I did it at university. And so, I wanted to do an episode to talk about their experience, and also talk about how we are kind of part of the problem of why they don't always have a good time in Australia. And then, obviously COVID-19 has happened, and has really impacted them as well, in a much different way than it's impacted local students. I don't know too much about this, but I will just say that I am working on something on this with a collaborator who's going to take the charge for this story, on how COVID has impacted international students. So that's coming soon.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
What were some of the responses to the international students episode?

Jay Ooi:
One friend wrote in and she mentioned a line that... I actually can't remember who said it. But they said that, "It's sad that we discriminate because we're all from overseas." And that's obviously not referring to the Indigenous population, but the general white population, and all of us Asians here. We're all from overseas. And she said that I felt that. And that's really poignant as well, because... And I couldn't include this in the episode, but Tatala the international student that I interviewed, she actually told me a story about how when... One of the first days where she arrived, she was getting on a bus. And it was pretty full, she jumped on and someone made a racist comment to her, as she got on the bus. And she kind of froze and she got off the bus. And she said, "Yeah, that incident sucked. But the saddest thing was that no one stood up for me, no one said anything." I was like, "Oh." That kind of broke my heart when she said that, because it shows that we're complicit in this racism. We kind of want to feel like we're from here as well, but guys, we're all immigrants, unless you're Indigenous. We're all immigrants here. So, can we treat each other a little better, please?

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
You just mentioned that example, where no one stood up for her, on that bus. And that kind of ties into the broader conversation that's going on right now in the world, post the dead of George Floyd. And how all of us are contributing or complicit in the systemic oppression that exists towards various marginalised communities. Episode eight in particular talks about diversity and inclusion within the workplace. And a lot of the discussion around BLM and how we can change current structures ties into D&I specifically, and the relevance of D&I initiatives within the organisations.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
After doing that episode, how do you see those conversations occurring? Do you have any particular examples of what's occurred at your place of work, in terms of the D&I initiatives that existed before BLM? And how that's changing shape? Or, if it's even staying the same after BLM?

Jay Ooi:
Yeah. I'm not going to name my organisation, but when BLM happened, we had to have a think about what as a company we'd say or do about it. And we all agreed that we should say nothing, because our entire exec team was white. It's good in a way, because we recognised that that was a problem. But it's also bad that the entire exec team is white. Yeah, so what's happened since then is, I emailed my HR and I said, "Hey, can we start a cultural diversity group here?" And they were actually really, really receptive to that. And they said that they'd been thinking about this for a little while, other things have come up and I sort of contacted them at the right time.

Jay Ooi:
And so, they just asked me to submit a few ideas of things that we might be able to do as a company. So, I think it's good that we're taking a step in the right direction. Yeah, look. I don't want to say that we were slow to this, but-

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
Another thing that's unique to where you work I think, in my experience, with the current organisation that I work, as well as the previous ones I've worked at, D&I initiatives were not a priority. Some organisations now have at least symbolically acknowledged Black Lives Matter. But in the example that you've just given in terms of where you work and the organisation choosing not to say anything about BLM, because the exec is white, kind of exemplifies the underlying premise that acknowledging that Black Lives Matter is seen as something that is taking away from the white executives that exist in the organisation.

Jay Ooi:
I think our thinking was that it would come across very tokenistic, to say it without... Because we didn't have a plan of action right at that moment, when it was all happening. And to come out with a statement without actually doing anything about it, is seen as... What do they call it?

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
Performative?

Jay Ooi:
Performative, yeah.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
Performative allyship, yeah.

Jay Ooi:
And we knew that wasn't a good look for the company. And also, other things are happening at the company where it probably... To be fair, they weren't in the place to put all their time and effort into cultural diversity thought at that moment in time.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
It's funny, because the organisation that I work at went through a pretty difficult time over the last few years. And when I brought up D&I initiatives a year and a half ago, for similar reasons that you've highlights, which is that we have a very white executive upper management team, I was given the same response, which is that these initiatives aren't a priority at the moment. But it's funny how that tune has changed because the organisation that I work for has now had a separate scandal in relation to diversity and inclusion. And now has made it a priority, because now it's impacting the bottom line in a very different way than initially anticipated.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
And I think it's important for any people listening right now, that whilst there might be nothing that's impacting your business in a very tangible way at the moment, the lack of these initiatives in your organisations can have a very significant flow on effect in the long run.

Jay Ooi:
Yeah, definitely. And I don't want to say that George Floyd's death was good, but it kind of has brought it to the forefront for a lot of organisations, that issue. SBS was in the news the other day, this is our broadcaster that's meant to be our multicultural broadcaster, and their upper management was all white. And then you had ex SBS management coming out and saying, "There's no problem in this, because all that matters is the people that we put on screen. White people tell people of colour's stories." And I think there's a real disconnect there that we're seeing, that people don't really understand why you need cultural diversity in the workplace.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
Just that sense of entitlement that some random white executive thinks he has the experience and the knowledge to be telling the stories of marginalised and radicalised communities is so arrogant and irritating to hear.

Jay Ooi:
Yeah. And to be fair, in the TV world, they wouldn't be telling the stories per se. But they're still choosing what stories get told, and even that choice is... Like, even if they employ people of colour to tell those stories in the end, they still have that power to choose what stories get told. And not coming from a minority background, you don't really know all the stories out there. You don't know what the experience is like. So, it is arrogant to say that you are just as informed and equipped to do this.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
Yeah, because this kind of goes into the conversation which is a separate topic all together about gate keeping. Like, who decides what content gets out into the world, and what is good content? What is bad content? And this can expand into movies, art, books, everything. A lot of the things that we consume has been determined to be worthy of consumption by predominantly white men.

Jay Ooi:
Yeah.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
After doing this episode, are there particular experiences or interactions that you perceive in a very different way than you did before doing the show?

Jay Ooi:
Yeah. There's one in particular. In the episode, Cathy mentioned how a lot of Asian, and particularly Asian females, are brought up to be good little girls. To be quiet. And this shows up in the workplace, because I know that I'm way less likely to talk over the top of someone, because I've just been taught that that's rude, and I shouldn't do that. But what I have noticed is that white people talk over the top of me, and other people, and women, as well. All the time. And it never occurred to be before, because I just thought that I didn't have the confidence or whatever, but now I know that it's a cultural thing, and I see that play out, and I see how particularly white men just need to say what they have to say and there's less respect for waiting for other people to finish what they have to say. I'm not saying that's good or bad, that's just the difference in culture. But it is something I'm noticing more now.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
Similar to your example, I sent my boyfriend an article about how when we're walking down the street, down the sidewalk, white people never move out of your way, and the expectation always is on minorities to move out of the way. And I made a very deliberate effort to not do so. And he's like, "No, that's not true." And now as he walks down the street, he's become so conscious of it because I sent this article, and he makes a very deliberate effort to just stand there and make other people move out of the way, because there's an entitlement and an expectation that they have the right of way, regardless of how that particular social collision has come about.

Jay Ooi:
Yeah. It's so funny, because you mentioned that to me the other week, and I was walking around near my workplace the other day, and I kid you not, four white men walking four abreast on the sidewalk, and I'm incoming and I'm like, "What... Are you guys going to move? What are you going to do? I can't fit through, there's four of you." And it literally took me almost running into them for them to like, one person to stand behind the other. So thank you for... I don't know if I should thank you, I guess it's good that I know now.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
You're welcome, you're welcome.

Jay Ooi:
I'm seeing it now too, thanks.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
So, this season in particular has changed my perceptions around Asian-ness, as the previous season did as well. How are you changing perceptions of Asian-ness and what it means to be Asian?

Jay Ooi:
Hopefully more in the next season we'll see this, but there will be more stories from different cultures, firstly. Also, I kind of want us to realise as well that there are a lot of things that we think are Asian that are common amongst a lot of cultures. So for example, and it's a stereotype I know, but that Asian people are cheap. Man, it's not just us. There are so many, so many cultures, they would call themselves kind of stingy. So, I don't know, we like to think we're so special in so many ways, which we are. But in other ways, we're very much like everyone else.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
What were the takeaways for you that you've applied to your life since doing this season?

Jay Ooi:
We talked about that example where Tatala was on the bus and no one defended her. And so, I've really realised the importance of not being silent in those situations, because silence is being complicit. So, it's much more important to me now that if I see racism, I stand up for it. Even if it might put me in a little bit of hot water. And another thing is, it encouraged me to email HR and start that cultural diversity group at my workplace. Because after doing that D&I ep, I realised that as a workplace, we were really good at certain aspects of D&I like promoting women in leadership and promoting LGBTQI+ rights. But not when it came to cultural diversity. And it's not a huge slag on the company, it's not what this is meant to be. But I just realised it was a gap that we had, and I could be that someone to start that initiative. And so, I did. I just emailed HR. You can do that too.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
I completely agree with you, and I think it's really important that we recognise that you and I in particular have a lot of privilege in the position that we're in in society, mainstream Australian society. And when we have that privilege, we should use it to advocate for marginalised communities whether that be queer, Asian, differently abled, whatever the case may be. And mainly because, for example, when you say international students, right? They don't have the opportunity to fight back, the confidence, or the resources to do so. Because if that student on the bus said something and that actually became an actual altercation, that interaction's going to significantly impact that international student's livelihood in Australian society. Like, they could be deported if that turns into a police report, whatever the case may be, right? And so, when we don't have those same kind of repercussions that we have to deal with, or we have the resources to fight those kinds of repercussions, we should do so at every opportunity.

Jay Ooi:
Yeah, I agree. And look, I know not everyone's at that point. You may just want to coast by in your workplace and go unnoticed. If that's you, I'm not going to force you to do anything. But just know that just us being... Especially if you grew up here, and you're a citizen here, we do have more power than other people have. And so, I don't want to say it's your responsibility, but it kind of is. It kind of is your responsibility to use it well.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
And I think it's important to ask yourself as well, why you think it's not your responsibility. What is it about standing up for your peers that is seen as a job of someone else?

Jay Ooi:
Yeah. Is it that you don't want to stand out, like you want to blend in with the white crowd, and you don't want to be noticed as that Asian who stands up for other Asians? Because then you're definitely seen as Asian.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
But even beyond that, I think it also goes into general culture about individualism versus collectivism, right? Are we owners of this idea that individual action is how we change society? Or do we think that we also act for the benefit of everyone else around us?

Jay Ooi:
Yeah, that's true. And that's a very... I don't want to say Asian, Confucian mindset. Does that play into... I'm sure it's part of other Asian cultures as well, I just know that it's Confucianism.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
No, it definitely plays into other parts of culture as well, because as a Tamil person... Let's talk about queer experiences and coming out, right? In the Western context it's seen as a very individual thing. It is your responsibility to come out and be visible and whatever else. But in a Tamil context and South Asian context more broadly, this is going to impact your parents, your extended family and your community. And so, you're not doing things just for yourself, you also have the expectations and the livelihoods of the people around you on your shoulders as well.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
What's coming up next, what do we have in store?

Jay Ooi:
Oh, there's so many exciting things happening for season three.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
Tell me, tell me, tell me.

Jay Ooi:
So many things in the works. I don't want to spoil too much, but I am collaborating with a few people on topics that they're passionate about, and they're really interested in telling a story in. And one of those people is you.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
Me!

Jay Ooi:
So, that's why you're hearing Thinesh today, because you'll be hearing more of him next season as well. And apart from that, I'm trying to do more story telling episodes. So, episodes that don't really have much of my voice at all in them. They're just someone telling their own story. And I really, really want to do more of this. So, if you have a great story to share, and you feel like writing it really well and delivering it really well with me, definitely get in touch, because I'm keen to collab.

Jay Ooi:
And if you have a topic or issue or something that you're really passionate about, and you want to tell that story in a podcast format, I'm always looking for people to collaborate. So, please do reach out. It's not that weird, I promise you I'm pretty good to work with, I think.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
He's okay.

Jay Ooi:
He's all right, yeah. Okay. But we'll make something really cool and you'll get the story out there, and I think it's important to have more voices that aren't mind on the show, that have different perspectives and can tell stories that I probably wouldn't have even thought about. Like what you're doing.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
Yay! No, I'm super excited to be doing a couple of episodes for you. Because I think, as I've discovered in conversations with you, the particular topics that I'm exploring is not unique to the South Asian community, but takes shape in a lot of different ways in different cultures across Asia, which I think is really fascinating.

Jay Ooi:
Yeah. Really looking forward to next season. Honestly, there's so much cool stuff coming. I'm so excited. I haven't stopped working, and I'm just really keen for you to hear some of these stories. Like, really, really keen.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
I'm super excited to hear them. Looking forward to it.

Jay Ooi:
Thanks.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
See you in season three.

Jay Ooi:
See you in season three! Touche.

Thinesh Thillainadarajah:
Touche.