S02E02 - Saving face and the secrets it hides
Transcript
Rachel
If you have this culture that teaches you that you cannot say no, to people– including people who love you, how terrified are you going to be to say no to people you don’t know at all...it makes it so hard to get justice. If someone asks you, did you say no, what are you supposed to say?
Jay Ooi
When it comes to saving face, a lot of us Asians are far less likely to seek help or talk to others. Where does this come from? And what are the consequences?
Hello and welcome to Shoes Off, stories about Asian Australian Culture. I’m Jay Ooi.
Saving face is something a lot of us Asians are very familiar with it, even if we don’t quite know how to put it in words. From fighting over the bill to politely deflecting compliments, it shows up far more than we think. But what else does face hide and cover over?
To find out, I’m going to let someone else take the hot seat. Would you like to introduce yourself?
Shona Yang
Hi, my name is Shona. I’m a freelance writer, focusing on topics related to minority experiences and human rights.
Jay Ooi
You’ve talked to a lot of people about saving face and what that looks like in their lives. What interested you in this topic?
Shona Yang
It makes sense to start this story backwards. A couple of months ago, I was sitting in a cafe when I started thinking about the concept of ‘saving face’ and if it was really a ‘thing’?
It wasn’t until I posted an interview call out that this really took off. Overnight, I received over 50 respondents, expressing their interest in sharing their story. I interviewed about 30 of those and listened to their experience. I just kept thinking– wow this is so relatable! Some shared stories that their closest friends don’t know. Interview after interview, I realised how deep-seated the cultural value of ‘saving face’ really is across Asian families.
Jay Ooi
Can you explain what this concept of “face” means?
Shona Yang
Saving face is this process of trying to avoid humiliation or shame, to maintain your/your family’s reputation. Professor Harry Minas from Monash University uses this example to describe saving face: In an [Anglo] Australian family, if one of the members of the family has problems or is behaving badly, the responsibility for that behaviour tends to be regarded as just the person who is actually engaged in such behaviour but in an Asian-Australian family, if one person is doing the wrong thing, then that reflects very directly on the family.
Jay Ooi
Ah yes, the age old collective vs individual societies. Well since you’ve done all the digging here, I’ll leave you to it.
Shona Yang
My first memorable encounter with ‘saving face’ was in high school. I told my mum that I had been talking to my church pastors about the impact my parents’ divorce had on me as a child. Mum couldn’t understand why I would voluntarily tell people about that sort of thing–when I tried to explain that it helps me and there’s no judgement, she threw out all these statements that in hindsight, I can summarise as an attempt to ‘save face’.
Statements like– It’s embarrassing and if people know your parents were divorced, they’ll look at you differently.
We always joke about how everyone knows everyone in the Korean community but there’s some truth to it. Word spreads so fast – It’s testament to the strength of our community but there’s harm attached to. One interviewee told me their parent’s status in the Korean Australian community was a real deterrent in their ability to signal for help because their friends’ parents knew each other. They said the inability to talk about it actually had long term consequences on their adult relationships, finding it difficult to trust people and open up to others.
When I asked people what ‘saving face’ meant to the people I interviewed, here’s how they described it…
Person 1
It’s almost like toxic mascuilinity in a way but it’s applied to everyone - children, babies, toddlers. We can’t ask for help or we can’t show that we’re struggling. You can’t have emotions that are not clean...if they’re complicated or they’re messy or they cause problems for anyone else then it’s morally incorrect to be doing those things.
Person 2
It means putting on a face when you know something happened but you don’t talk about it... you just pretend you’re fine.
Person 3
Specifically being an Asian woman, being perceived as the one who needs to carry the weight. You need to be a strong woman but you can’t be vulnerable… you’ve got to keep moving on and there’s no time to have anxiety or depression… you’ve just gotta keep fighting.
Shona Yang
It might sound like everything about face is negative, but it’s not all bad. In some respects, ‘saving face’ can get you out of some pretty sticky social situations.
In Korean it’s called pyohjong gwali
Jay Ooi
a direct translation would be to manage your facial expressions
Shona Yang
It’s about your when and where to show how you’re really feeling. If someone you really dislike starts talking and you make this face instantly but your friend might remind you to get rid of that face, that’s a form of pyohjong gwali.
There’s an element of noonchi too– the art of intuitively knowing what others are thinking and anticipating what they need and feel– in some contexts, noonchi saves you from saying the wrong thing at the wrong time and without it- you’d commit a lot of social faux pas. Noonchi is a huge deal in social contexts– there’s even a book written by Euny Hong called ‘The Power of Nunch: The Korean Secret to Happiness and Success.
So, saving face is not all bad. But, the interesting thing about saving face is when that value collides in a Western context. I remember going over to my friend’s house in primary school and even though her parents were divorced, her dad would still come over and have a beer with her stepdad. I could never imagine that happening in my family…
It seems to clash because ‘saving face’ is so ingrained across many Asian cultures but in a Western context, it’s so normal to express ourselves and voice our emotions…
Dr Jane Park
In the East asian context, you have the strong pull of Confucianism, this is China, Korea, japaRachel
If you have this culture that teaches you that you cannot say no, to people– including people who love you, how terrified are you going to be to say no to people you don’t know at all...it makes it so hard to get justice. If someone asks you, did you say no, what are you supposed to say?
n. In the confucian system, which is very hierarchical, the family actually functions as a kind of microcosm for the nation.
Jay Ooi
That’s Dr Jane Park– a Korean Australian a scholar and senior lecturer in cultural studies at the University of Sydney.
Shona Yang
Jane says the differences in how we relate to ourselves and others can be traced back to the influence of confucianism…
Dr Jane Park
Confucianism is quite a patriarchal structure plus it’s all about how you don’t really have an individual identity in the sense where we think of the individual in the west… The idea that we are each a single entity with rights and who have agency, that’s a very different worldview than a communal view.
Even in the language, there is no word for ‘I’. It’s ‘woori... ‘ Even in the language you see that reflected.
Shona Yang
It’s interesting because in everyday Korean speech it’s common to say ‘woori’ meaning ‘us’ or ‘we’ or ‘our’. Like woori nampyeon or woori jib
Jay Ooi
Our husband or our house.
Shona Yang
It’s the first person plural which replaces the use of a singular. It’s interesting how phrases like this influence the way we process our emotions…
Dr Jane Park
Again in Korea, we don’t call each other by name. For a woman, it’s always where you are in the social hierarchy –– so and so’s mum, or samonim. It reflects your position. It’s not good or bad but it’s just the model. Because of that structure, it’s so family focused and group focused and it’s about these hierarchies and I think that will lend itself to people being reticent about expressing their emotions through language because that’s a very western thing.
Shona Yang
So you have these people coming from an eastern culture where filial piety
Jay Ooi
That’s where respect is owed to one’s parents and ancestors
Shona Yang
and a collectivist mentality is huge, and they’re living in a western context where there are open conversations around mental health and relationships - this can be quite confronting and tricky to navigate.
That was the case in Laura’s* experience…
Laura
When I was in primary school, my mum was a teacher at my school so everyone knew her...it was her first major depression round...she was quite sick, so she stayed at home a lot and she couldn't deal with her work commitments..... I’d get teachers coming up to me and asking me like, is your mom okay?
Shona Yang
Laura grew up in Perth, Australia with her mum, dad and older sister. Her parents immigrated to Australia over 10 years ago but parts of their heritage like ‘saving face’ remained a strong family value. For Laura, saving face was a learned behaviour. At first, it was just not wanting to lose a card of games,
Jay Ooi
And that’s because losing a game is a sign of weakness
Shona Yang
but as life became more complicated, ‘saving face’ was taken to a whole new level.
Laura
I didn't understand what was going on...this is the time before... all this mental health stuff. And especially within Asian communities, we have no idea what's going on.
I don't think it ever crossed my mind that it was a mental illness. I think it was always like moms being lazy..... So mom probably had depression for a really long time and it went undiagnosed. So it became an insidious part of her personality I kind of identified with...
Shona Yang
Mental health is taboo across many Asian cultures, preventing many from seeking help. Take South Korea as an example. With the highest rate of suicide among OECD nations,
Jay Ooi
This is a group of 36 countries that contribute the majority of the world’s trade and investment.
Shona Yang
And mental health is almost non-exisent in the public conversation. Dr. Kim Hyong-soo from a psychologist and professor at Chosun University says, talking openly about emotional problems is still taboo.
In a culture where saving face demands you to prioritise reputation and family name above your needs, it’s easier to say everything is okay…
Laura
I don't remember anyone saying that I shouldn't, shouldn't say anything. But I remember calling kind of having that anxiety when I'm having that conversation with the teacher…you are a kid so you only really know what your parents tell you…
So by having them asked me, it was almost like they were poking at my bubble… Cracks started to appear...
Shona Yang
Things took a turn for the worst in high school when Laura’s sister attempted suicide. It was lunchtime at school when Laura’s friend spotted her sister in an ambulance. After hearing the news, she did something strange… she went straight back to class as if nothing had happened.
Laura
That was really strange because I remember feeling like, oh, like everything's fine, you know, like kind of maintain that facade. Whereas someone else would have had like a meltdown, like a western person would've but not an Asian person…The school offered me counseling... I think I only must've gone there two or three times...But I realize now that I was just saving face.
Shona Yang
The incident with Laura’s sister changed the family forever. It was the tipping point that forced the family to address the taboo topic of mental health and start seeking professional help, but only as a last resort.
In 2018, Relationships Australia -
Jay Ooi
A national counselling and dispute resolution service -
Shona Yang
Said only 19 per cent of its website visitors identified as immigrants.
Jay Ooi
But let’s remember that just under half of the entire population was born overseas or have at least one parent born overseas.
Michelle Lin
If you had inside knowledge, there would be more referrals, more reports, more people looking for services. The demand is definitely there but there’s a huge lack of community education around domestic violence, sexual abuse and child discipline.
Shona Yang
That’s Michelle Lin, a counsellor based in Caringbah, NSW. Michelle is also a Chinese-Australian, but during her uni degree and throughout much of her working life she noticed that the people seeking counselling and therapy, aren’t usually Asian.
I guess the biggest thing that I’m curious about is, from your experience in the role day to day, are you dealing with a lot of people from Asian communities?
Michelle Lin
No and I definitely think we should be.. I definitely think we’re falling through the gaps. And I don’t think that’s intentional but we have such a Westernised system around healthcare, around mental health, around child care and domestic violence…
Social work, counselling and psychology– like 90% of it is white. We’re definitely falling through the gaps and there is definitely a need.
Shona Yang
Michelle says that one of the biggest gaps in the mental health system and domestic violence system is the lack of diversity and how Westernised the industry is. For a culture where saving face is prevalent, additional language and cultural barriers only makes it harder to access help.
Michelle Lin
Having counsellors that speak a secondary language is really hard, my background is Chinese-Australian. My Chinese is okay but I wouldn’t feel confident counselling in Chinese, and it’s hard to find people who are confident in the language but are also trained counsellors…you get either or.
Shona Yang
She’s also noticed that Asian families are more responsive to practical programs about parenting and communication rather than ‘reflective’ programs...
Michelle Lin
Asian communities are susceptible to a lot more practical based programs. They wouldn’t turn away from practical based programs around parenting and communication (what you should or shouldn’t do) as opposed to reflective programs (this is the impact and core root). Asian communities don’t really like that, they think my parenting is fine, i just want parenting tips. Don’t talk to me about therapy.
Shona Yang
Talking to a stranger– even if they’re a professional– about some of your traumas and scars is difficult for anyone but when you add saving face into the mix, the idea of talking openly about your emotions and feelings is like asking someone to unlearn everything they’ve been taught.
Michelle Lin
With ‘saving face’ thing... it becomes ‘this is my business, everyone else stay out’ or if you see a kid getting hit, you avert your eyes. But there’s also... huge clusters of cultures and they’re all in insulated suburbs… making it hard for services to come in. We’re very Westernised and it’s hard for us to be accessible. That’s on us. That’s on services and that’s on funding.
Shona Yang
In Laura’s experience, saving face involved manufacturing a facade that ‘everything is alright’ but in this next story, we see how saving face creates a barrier between ethnicities, friends and even loved ones.
Jay Ooi
Trigger warning: this next story from Rachel, a Chinese Australian living in melbourne, contains references to sexual harassment and abuse…
Rachel
These two guys grabbed me and compared me to a geisha. They asked if I wanted a marriage license to stay in the country. They were taking turns to grab me and feel me up… they were taking turns to feel me up and slur my ethnicity…
Shona Yang
As one of the men had her hands in place, she felt her knuckles cracking beneath his firm grip. It’s a terrifying and humiliating experience for anyone to be in but there was one thought running through Rachels’ head: If someone is willing to do those things already, what else are they capable of? If I say no, what else could he do?
As an illustrator, Rachel’s hands are literally her life source. She was afraid that resistance would lead to larger consequences. The thought immobilised her.
Rachel
You want to get away with as least harm as possible. People are like, why didn’t you say no? They were already doing things. Why didn’t you run away? They are faster than me. Why didn’t you say no? They’re already doing things to me…
Shona Yang
Rachel bravely went to the police station to tell them what had happened. They asked her a series of questions to unpack the event but one particular question was incredibly difficult to answer…
Rachel
When I told the police later, they asked me, ‘What were you wearing’ Long sleeves and long pants.’ Then they asked me. Did you say no, that is a very loaded question…
Shona Yang
‘Did you say no’ – it seems like a fair and simple question to be asking but for Rachel, and plenty of other Asian women like her, their understanding of saving face and cultural values, means saying no is not as easy as it sounds…
Rachel
If you have this culture that teaches you that you cannot say no, to people– including people who love you, how terrified are you going to be to say no to people you don’t know at all...it makes it so hard to get justice. If someone asks you, did you say no, what are you supposed to say?
Shona Yang
According to the National Community Attitudes towards Violence against Women Survey, an alarming amount of people from non-English speaking backgrounds are more likely to attribute responsibility for violence to the victim.
This is also one of the reasons why Rachel still hasn’t spoken to her mum about her experiences that day.
Rachel
This is a thing that white people say to me so much “why haven’t you told your mum?” “Why haven’t you told your mum about it”. I didn’t realise this was a white person thing to say the first few times. I just thought they had really open relationships but overtime, i basically only ever hear that from white people and they almost shame me… “I just don’t understand why you haven’t told your mum…. But any person of colour who has ever talked to me about it says ‘I understand completely. I instantly get it.
Shona Yang:
Data from the Australian Bureau of Statistics reveals that one in six Australian women -
Jay Ooi
That’s 1.5 million people -
Shona Yang
Have experienced physical and/or sexual abuse before the age of 15. Domestic violence is pervasive across all cultures, but for many women within Australia’s CALD communities
Jay Ooi
That’s culturally and linguistically diverse communities,
Shona Yang
‘Saving face’ can make it difficult to speak up and ask for help until the trauma and illness is too big to ignore…
In Laura’s case, things got too bad to ignore. Counselling and therapy helped Laura’s sister work through her mental illness and her mum opted for medical treatment. It’s been a couple of years now but Laura says her mum is like a completely different person.
Witnessing the improvement of her mum’s mental health has given Laura the confidence to approach her own mental health issues. When I first spoke to her, Laura and her husband were expecting their first child. She was worried that she’d experience a case of postnatal depression too but Laura knew she wanted to do things differently.
Laura
When I think about my own family, I think about how I really want to be open with my son about my depression because you know, I'm worried that this is something that's going to be coded genetically or he's going to witness me being depressed. Like I witnessed my mom... and I think that's really scary...I want to focus a lot on emotional development, development with my kids and being really open about mental health and yeah... Like completely the opposite to how my dad operates…
Shona Yang
You’d be happy to know that Sarah has given birth to a healthy baby boy. She wrote this lovely email saying “Thanks for sharing my story, I feel heard and vulnerable and more at peace- it's healing being able to put this out into the world. P.S I didn't get Postnatal depression (fingers crossed it says that way!). Also my sister who tried to commit suicide is back from traveling the world for 7 years, and its amazing. The wounds of our childhood are healing, and things are finally coming together!”
Laura really has broken the cycle of silence.
In a culture where ‘saving face’ is ingrained in the way we approach divorce, mental health, sexual abuse and other traumatic but normal life situations, it can make us feel alone and helpless. But, out of all the interviews I conducted, not one person said they regretted telling someone about their experiences… I’d encourage you to take one step towards healing and restoration by talking to a friend, loved one or finding professional help
Jay Ooi
We’ll have a list of resources in the show notes.
Shona Yang
Yes, saving face is important, but choosing to speak out can bring a lot of healing and al ot of freedom.
This episode of Shoes Off was written and produced by me Shona Yang.
Jay Ooi
With editing and mixing by me Jay Ooi.
Shona Yang
Special thanks to all our guests this episode - Jane, Laura, Michelle, Rachel and everyone else who hasn’t been mentioned here but has helped me put together this story.
Jay Ooi
And special thanks to you Shona for putting this story together. Shona what resources will be available in the show notes?
Shona Yang
If you need to speak to a professional or this story raises anything for you, we’ll have links and numbers for who you can contact - Relationships Australia, Beyond Blue and more. You can read more about saving face in an article I wrote for SBS which will also be in the show notes at shoesoff.net
Jay
Amazing, if you liked Shoes Off, please subscribe you can find it wherever you get your podcasts, and you can follow the show on facebook and instagram at shoesoffau. Shona, where can people find you?
Shona Yang
You can read a bunch of articles I’ve written at shonasays.com and you can follow me at shonasays on twitter, instagram and facebook. If you have a friend that might relate to what you’ve heard today, please share this episode with them.
Jay
Shona, thanks for leading the charge today.
Shona Yang
You’re welcome!
Jay
And thank you for listening. Catch you next episode.
Shona Yang
Byeeeee!
Jay Ooi
So what did you struggle with when you came to write this episode
Shona
Honestly I can think of so many awesome interviews and stories to share and narrowing it down to two or three was hard. I wanted to do justice to everyone, like I think of a tonne of people who have incredible stories and journeys that are worth sharing, so I think that was the tough part.
Jay
Yeah, and that was me going, hey we need to keep it to around 3 people.
Shona
Yeah cut it down. Which is good because then you’d be listening to me for an hour.
Jay
I’m sure you want to hear more of Shona. Are you going to come back for another episode?
Shona
We’ll see, if you’ll have me.
Jay
I’d love to have you
Shona
You’ve committed now, it’s on tape, proof, 21st March.
*Names have been changed to protect the privacy of the interviewees
Guests
Jane Park
Michelle Lin
Resources
Shona’s article on saving face: https://www.sbs.com.au/news/the-feed/how-saving-face-silences-domestic-violence-in-asian-australian-communities
Find more of Shona: https://www.shonasays.com/, https://www.instagram.com/shonasays/, https://twitter.com/shonaasays
Relationships Australia: 1300 364 277, https://www.relationships.org.au/
Beyond Blue: 1300 22 4636, https://www.beyondblue.org.au/
1800 RESPECT: 1800 737 732, https://www.1800respect.org.au/
Lifeline: Translating and Interpreting Service is available (TIS) on 131 450 or ask to talk to Lifeline in the language required on 13 11 14, https://www.lifeline.org.au/
