Transcript

Jay Ooi

So okay, how do you identify? What's your sexual orientation?

Vox pops on the street

Gay.

Yeah, same.

We're gay.

I am gay

Jay Ooi

Yes, I went out to Oxford Street to ask guys who are attracted to guys some questions about race.

Um, if you had to rank the racial groups in the gay world, what would they be?

In terms of attractiveness?

Vox pops on the street

Attractiveness, ooh. Okay. Um, generally I go for more Caucasian. But I do find I like, like Middle Eastern I find very, very attractive. And also, like Asian as well.

To me, honestly, completely honest, I haven't really thought about it. This is me saying that I've only really dated white people,

But, that's probably more circumstantial. Maybe you just haven't met anything else different, but I try not to really look at the race to be honest. Genuinely that's my honest answer.

I think times are changing. I think people that look exotic are starting to come through. I know that, I guess it used to be the white man, but I think it's because that's what you mostly saw in the media. But I think the idea of having someone exotic, whether it be half of this, half of that, something that just, the features look very defining and different, I think that's really becoming something that's attractive.

Jay Ooi

do you think racial preference is an issue or not?

Vox pops on the street

Um ... No and the reason why I say it's not is because theirs, let's go very stereotypical here, there's white guys that I don't find attractive at all. And then there's white guys that I do, and there's black guys that I find attractive and black guys that I don't.

Well, I guess I'm not into girls, so that's my preference, but it doesn't make me anti-feminist.

I'm not on Grindr, but when I was there was a lot of guys that would say, 'not into Asians', or 'not into this or that', but just definitely racial discrimination. So, I think society, I think Australia to be honest as a whole is definitely an underlying thread of racism.

Jay Ooi

How does race play a role in sexual attraction amongst gay men? And what does it really mean to have a preference for one race over another?

Hello and welcome to Shoes Off. I’m Jay Ooi.

On today’s episode, preference. It’s the word people use to describe the sorts of people they’re attracted to. And I want to hone in on racial preference amongst gay men, because it plays out uniquely in this space as opposed to straight or lesbian attraction. Just a warning, there is mention of sex and drugs in this episode, and it is a little on the heavy side. Okay, back to gay racial preferences. To understand this better I spoke with Dr Denton Callendar from New York University who did a thesis paper on racial preferences specifically in the Australian context. And just to be clear, Denton is white, gay and originally from Canada.

You titled your thesis ‘Just A Preference’. So for those people who aren't familiar with this phrase, what does it mean and how do people use it?

Denton

So this idea of Just A Preference is probably, it's the most consistent argument that I encounter when I talk to people about sexual racism or just generally, it's the idea that people come to which is these ... These being my desires aren't racist. They are an expression of my individual likes and dislikes, which is a genuine feeling that people have. I'm quite certain that people do think that's the case, and it reflects in my mind just a misunderstanding about how our desires form.

Jay Ooi

So, it’s just my preference. This has been used to defend phrases like “no fats, no fems, no Asians”.

For me, hitting adolescence and adulthood as a gay Asian male added a whole new layer of racial complexity and honestly, pain. Coming to terms with being gay in a Malaysian Chinese household is already a challenge in itself, but what I didn't expect was dealing with the gay world too.

And the thing is, the online gay dating world is really not a good place to be when you're self conscious and insecure. Back in the day, racial preferences were advertised front and centre - things like no rice no spice. Not really knowing much about the gay world, I began to think this was normal - it was my first exposure to it after all.

So is racial preference more than just a preference?

Denton

So it may be true that some people do have preferences when it comes to sex and relationships, but those preferences are informed by our social world, and by our whole life, basically the way in which we're brought up, and because we're brought up in systems or in societies that are still pretty racist in some ways, our desires come to reflect that. ... it's more about inviting people to think about their desires as a product of their environment. So to say that they're just a preference is ignoring the truth about how our sexual and romantic desires are formed.

it's actually quite consistently found in research, was just how patterned people's radicalised desires were. So if we were to believe in this argument that it's just a preference, you would expect pretty much randomness.

it's really, really like, it maps quite dramatically to the groups in Australia that already experienced racism in other contexts.

Jay Ooi

And what are these dramatic groups? Well Denton’s research asked over 2000 guys to rate the attractiveness of certain racial groups on a scale of 1 to 5. The most attractive? White people, and the least? Indians, Aboriginals and yepp, Asians. And Denton’s research reflects what other studies have found - white men are consistently the most desired, whilst Asians are usually ranked far below. Just to reiterate, if it were truly just a preference, we would expect complete randomness when it comes to racial attraction, but this is consistently not the case.

Denton

there's always a racial hierarchy in play. The details might be different, but the details reflect the broader social structures around race. So from a social science perspective, that really gives up the game. It really is strong evidence that this isn't a matter of preference, but instead a reflection of racism as it exists more broadly.

Jay Ooi

Okay, so there is a clear disparity between the attractiveness of racial groups. But what sort of factors influence our preferences? I asked Denton how our racial preferences are formed.

Denton

Well, it's pretty complex as you can imagine, but there's really, there's a few different things that go on. So first of all, there is the physiology and the biology of it. ...So everyone's born needing food, but the kind of food that we enjoy, these are things that are informed by our culture. So just what our societies, how they're already organised at the time we're born, this has a huge influence.

The way in which we're socialised by our parents and our peers. So the kinds of things that those groups of people display as normal and the things that they do. And then of course, really as an extension of those two things, the media that we consume, so the way in which things are presented to us and when it comes to sex, I mean, standards of beauty of course. I mean the things in which our societies value as beautiful, these are highly radicalised. And then of course, specific to sex, there's pornography, which again, really has very specific and consistent racial tropes.

Jay Ooi

These racial tropes in pornography should be pretty familiar with you if you are a minority. Other research has shown this too - the dominant black male, the hyper masculine middle eastern man, and the feminine, submissive Asian. And no I’m not going to be that guy to tell you to stop watching porn, but what we expose ourselves to does teach our brain what is attractive does reinforce certain stereotypes. Heck, I’ve even had guys message me saying, “you must be a bottom, you’re Asian. Haven’t you seen Asian guys in porn?”

The issue of how Asians are portrayed though does extend beyond porn. Asian men in general have been feminised through the media and government policies as well. Couple this with a critical mass of gay men’s obsession with masculinity both in personality and appearance, and you have the perfect melting pot for Asian men in particular to be seen as undesirable.

But back on topic. So now we know our preferences are informed by our upbringing, and the things that surround us like the Ryan Gosling’s and Chris Hemsworth’s we’re told are beautiful. But how is it any different from other preferences like age?

Denton

We all age, we'll all be old and young at various times. I mean, with of course the exception of people, who don't make it to being older. But in general, that's the trajectory of the human experience. Your age is a really useful proximal marker of milestones in your life. Actually, having a preference for someone closer to your age in some ways makes sense, because you're more likely to have a connection with that person.

That's not to say there's anything wrong with having a preference, for people who are much older or much younger than you, but it's just not really equivalent to race.

Most people would recognise they've had different kinds of attraction, but again, race and racism are social constructions. That's not to say they're not real. But the way in which we think about them, the stereotypes that we attach to them, these are all exclusively informed by how our society views different racial groups.

Jay Ooi

So race is unique in that it’s purely a social construct, but the racial hierarchy does exist and it does often reflect wider social issues. How does this play out outside of gay preferences?

Denton

Oh, I mean, there's heaps of examples including up until the 1970s, Australia had an explicitly white immigration policy. I mean, it took decades to undo that policy. There's the current kind of fear-mongering that happens around investment, particularly from people in China. I mean these are all examples of how the dominant racial group seeks to minimise and to marginalise other racial groups.

The trick is sometimes this has done consciously, which is quite villainous, but mostly it's unconscious bias that people are activating. They're responding to things they don't even necessarily see in themselves.

Jay Ooi

So yes, there are larger social issues around race, and yes they affect our racial preferences when it comes to dating and sex. You might be thinking, it’s just my preference, what harm is it actually doing? Everyone is into something, and there’s someone for everyone, right?

Maybe? Sort of? But it doesn’t make it free from consequences. Research has shown that racial preferencing is harmful to gay and bisexual men of colour. It can be traumatising.

James

I feel like I’m being judged.

Jay Ooi

This is James, originally from the Philippines, but he’s been living in Australia for 8 years.

James

I feel like being Asian as well, you’re not good enough.

Jay Ooi

Can you tell me a bit more about that?

James

I’ve had rejections

Jay Ooi

Because you were Asian?

James

Yeah, yeah.

Jay Ooi

What did that look like?

James

Oh, you get remarks on gay apps, like sorry I’m not into rice and spice.

Jay Ooi

Is that quite common?

James

On gay apps? Yeah, I get that all the time.

Jay Ooi

And so you mentioned that you feel like you’re not good enough.

James

That I’m not good enough, and that made me hate being in that crowd, like I’m different, I don’t want to be with you guys because it’s my wall coming up saying that – to protect myself and my self esteem, I don’t want to be people like them.

Jay Ooi

And by that crowd and people like them, James is referring to the gay scene. In Sydney, away from his parents and extended family, James joined the local gay dragonboating club to get out of his comfort zone a bit.

James

I only started paddling two years ago, and the purpose of that is for me to socialize, build network, and be comfortable with my sexuality...because I feel like, okay, going back to gays in Sydney, I feel like I’m not gay enough to go out in Oxford Street.

Jay Ooi

Why is that?

James

Maybe this is me, going back to my childhood, not accepting myself for who I am and I feel like when I go out in Oxford Street, I don’t want to be that sort of stereotype gay Asian, I want to be different. A part of me still – I’m not accepting who I am. And then that’s when I join dragon boat to be more comfortable with who I am.

Jay Ooi

And has that helped?

James

It did, it opened up a lot of – made new friends, and made me comfortable with my sexuality. I’m not filtering my Facebook posts anymore, like if you tag me with the rainbow flag that’s fine, because I hear people’s stories as well, like they went through the same experiences that I had.

Jay Ooi

how do you view your chances of finding love in Sydney?

James

Like I said Sydney is a melting pot. There’s always a chance for me for love. There’s always someone out there, just need to find that connection with that person.

There’s always chances of love even if you’ve been stereotyped, or get racial remarks, race is just race, that’s it, that’s what you are, that’s what you’re born in, that’s your ethnic background, but there’s nothing you can do about that, but what you can do is show them your personality, show them who you are and if that personality outweighs your ethnic background then I guess that person might like you for who you are.

Jay Ooi

Do you ever wish you were white?

James

Yes...The idea of I guess beauty in the Philippines and it’s going back to your question about culture as well, the idea of beauty in the Philippines is someone who is white, very western, highlighted hair, blue eyes, so I did at some stage wish I am whiter, fairer skin, browned eyes, taller, more masculine, more muscle, like not – I’ve got a really small frame, yes, to answer your question yes, but now I’m comfortable with who I am.

Denton

I did talk to a lot of people who were quite bothered and hurt by what they experienced. They described for me moments of despair, or depression resulting from their experiences.

If for a white guy to be sexually rejected by an Asian man, it doesn't have the same stinging effect because it's not backed up by this huge system of inequality, that supports what happens when a white guy rejects an Asian man. Because we know through huge amount of data that, that very rarely happens and it almost always happens in the reverse, the impact is just so much less.

There's this, a very famous piece from the late 20th century called the Invisibility of Whiteness. It's about the privileges that white people have, that they don't realise they have. I can tell you, I'm sure guys don't respond to me on Grindr. I never once think it's because I'm a white boy. But for other racial groups, that is certainly the case. This shapes how you see yourself, and it shapes how you see sex. Although it's difficult to specifically link those experiences to maladaptive coping techniques, like taking drugs or being more willing to engage in risky sex, because you're so grateful to have a partner or whatever, that's a simplification. But I'm sure for some guys this does start to be the case. We all want to play this game when it comes to sex, and to feel like you're being excluded because of your race, certainly could lead you to take more chances than you might otherwise.

Jay Ooi

And I can definitely relate to this. Living in Sydney, I have felt inferior in my home country. And sometimes, like James, I really hated that I was Asian. I hated that because of something out of my control, I was automatically passed over. But often? I just felt like that’s all I deserved.

Denton

Somewhat to me it's really sad in some respects that they started to internalise this idea that their racial group was unattractive.... And to me that's, it's sort of the ultimate expression of prejudice when you start to actually believe the prejudice that is lobbed against you.

Jay Ooi

So we’ve seen the effect of preferences that in general favour the dominant group in society, so what is being done? Apps like Grindr have taken a stance against negative language around race, making it a reportable offence, but Denton doesn’t really think this solves much.

Denton

In my mind it's a bit tricky. It maybe makes people feel better, or it improves the tone of the online dating environment. But it doesn't actually address the reason why someone would put that on their profile in the first place.

I don't know if reporting people's profiles actually does anything, except make them a little bit angry, about the whole thing.

Jay Ooi

But what about the racial categories themselves in apps like Grindr?

It's something I've been thinking about, because I was like, "I think maybe my racial views of the world, are informed by the way that Grindr has told me what race is." And it's a bit wrong.

Denton

Definitely. These categories, we are so used to seeing them now, that their presence suggests this is normal. This is a useful way to categorise people and ourselves as well. The category Asian is actually a great example of one of the most useless categories I've ever encountered. I was giving a talk on this very subject in Shanghai last year. Out of curiosity, and I found a couple popular dating websites in Shanghai. There are categories that I would constitute as Asian, they had like 15.

I would still advocate for having them be removed. At the very least, I don't think you should be able to search on them. I think that's kind of silly. But, who knows? I guess that's just my hippy dippy, free love kind of approach to these things.

Jay Ooi

But there are actually people who maybe need these racial filters. I’m talking about minorities who are seeking out other minorities. And in relation to this podcast, Asians who are looking for other Asians, and want to celebrate their Asianness.

How is the gay Asian scene in Sydney?

Vincent

It's great. There's so many Asians that identify as gay, and they come from all sorts of diasporas... and as a community we're quite close. We're very well connected. We know each other. And we do bond together.

Jay Ooi

That’s Vincent, a Perth raised Sydneysider who refers to himself as ‘sticky rice’ - a term used to describe Asian guys who are mainly or exclusively into other Asian guys. And Sydney, moreso than Perth, has a sizeable Gaysian population. And one thing that Vincent does like? Circuit parties with lots of Asian boys. I’ll let him explain it.

All right. Let's talk about circuit parties. What are they?

Vincent

At its essence, it is a collection of parties, often over a weekend, held in a city, usually with a sizeable gay scene, and boys fly from all over the world to congregate over that weekend, and it's a social activity, and they party.

Jay Ooi

These circuit parties that Vincent goes to - picture a big dark well decorated space with laser lights, smoke the whole shebang, crowded with over 10,000 guys who have come dressed up, either themed with their group or in something specific to these circuit parties - we’re talking elaborate costumes, harnesses, underwear, fans. There’s a DJ playing electronic dance music, performances, sometimes by celebrities, and a crowd of mostly high dancers, bopping and grinding along to the beat of the music. But Vincent says it’s more than that.

Vincent

...So yes it is a party, but it's more a vacation, it's a gathering, and the only strict definition is that it is more than one party and people fly in from all over the world.

Jay Ooi

Okay. Cool. How many circuit parties have you been to, would you guess?

Vincent

More than 20. Definitely more than 20. Yeah. Between 20 and 30, I've lost count.

Jay Ooi

You have been to a few that tend to attract a lot of Asians.

Vincent

Correct.

Jay Ooi

Majority Asian.

Vincent

90% I'd say.

Jay Ooi

Yeah. What's special about these parties, specifically for Asian people?

Vincent

Well firstly, they're held in asia. So White Party and Songkran are in Bangkok. And Taiwan's got their own circuit party. The local crowd and the overseas Asians tend to be attracted.

There is a lot of hierarchical racism in western countries, where despite the best intentions of the gay Asian community, white men are put on a pedestal. And all the virtues are associated with them purely because of their race. Asian circuit parties reverses that. Unintentionally. But the effect is that it empowers our community.

The thing people have to understand, is that circuit parties, just like gay tennis, is a way to celebrate our sexuality. And one common thing that defines all LGBT is that at some point, they're comfortable enough to celebrate who they are. And circuit parties is one way, it's not the best way, it's not the worst way, but it's one way. People go there for all different reasons. Some people go there for the drugs. Some people go there for the music. Others go there for the social aspect. Some people go there for sex. Often it's a combination of more than one reason, but, for me, it's because all my friends are going.

...And it's a gathering of attractive friends, and acquaintances, and people you find attractive that you want to sleep with. All at the one party. In a destination where you can go and eat, and go to the beach. So it's vacation. The appeal is you're using your annual leave to be efficient with your socialising, plus have a vacation. That's the appeal.

Jay Ooi

There has been some criticism around these circuit parties for their drug use, and impaired judgement leading to higher rates of sexually transmitted infections. And of course, the fit, muscular bodies that are seemingly everywhere. But it’s also a celebration of gay life and sexuality, and these parties do attract a broad age group of people, from young gay men in their 20’s to those in their 60’s. And whilst days of partying is not really that appealing to me, that sense of being an Asian in this setting and being sought after instead of being overlooked because of your race - I can totally understand the appeal.

For people who have never been, but are maybe slightly interested. What would you tell them?

Vincent

Go with friends. Be comfortable with who you are. And don't go there seeking. Don't have high expectations. Just enjoy the moment. Don't overthink things. The circuit lifestyle is not sustainable, nor is it real. It's very hedonistic. And if you can get that out of your system, that it's not real, you'll have a great time in the three days that you're there.

Jay Ooi

And how important are drugs to having a great time?

Vincent

Drugs should be used to enhance your social experience. It shouldn't be used to escape. If you are not happy with your life, don't go to these parties and do drugs, because you'll come back and you'll feel a lot worse.

Jay Ooi

Are you proud to be a gay Asian male?

Vincent

Oh I’m so proud. Because this me. I’m not pretending anymore. I know that yes we’re in the minority but we’re not that in the minority it’s not like our trans friends where we’re not always battling. We’re in a sizable minority that’s going quite well and I’m proud of that. We’ve come a long way.

Jay Ooi

So gay asian circuit parties along with gay dragon boat racing are some of the ways that Asians are celebrating and reclaiming their pride. But outside of these events, there are still racial issues in the gay world. So what can we actually do about it? Denton says there’s not a whole heap of research into this yet, but in general? It’s breaking down your stereotypes.

Denton

At the end of the day, the thing that works the best, which is really hard to manufacture, is like an organic experience with another person, against to whose group you have a racist belief.

Often when people encounter others, and they're exposed to their thinking and they realise, "This is just another person, I'm being silly," that's the most effective way.

Jay Ooi

Yepp, just actually talk to them. We all make these quick assumptions about people when we see them, without really knowing anything about them. Instead of glancing right over them, we just need to take another look and maybe go up to them and say hi. Or maybe join a gay dragonboating club, or a gay tennis or rugby or gamers club, and actually get to know people over time who are different to who you’re attracted to. Who knows, maybe you’ll realise your perception of that race is just a little different from what you thought. Another thing Denton recommends trying?

Denton

Look for some porn, with someone in a racial group you're not usually attracted to, and see if you can find a model that you find attractive. I almost guarantee you, you will. Every racial group has beautiful, beautiful people, ugly people too, sure. But there really isn't a monopoly on beauty here. If you find something you like and enjoy yourself with it, that's kind of one step in opening your mind and encouraging you, to think more broadly about who you might or might not be attracted to.

Jay Ooi

Okay, so racial preferences are more than just a harmless, individual taste situation, they’re social constructs informed by our upbringing, culture and the wider social issues at play - you can’t have a racial preference independent of socially informed racial views. There is a clear racial hierarchy in the gay male world, and it can be quite harmful to those generally seen as less desireable because it’s often reinforcing that pre-existing racial discrimination. But there are also ways that gay Asians are reclaiming their sense of pride and beauty. And for us? We can question our own racial preferences, and maybe branch out from what we tell ourselves we like.

So how do I view myself now? Well, I have to say that travelling solo changed a lot for me. I spent 7 months abroad in largely Western countries, and boy were my eyes opened. Those white guys back home who never would have even glanced at me? Some of them actually wanted to meet me. And those Asians who grew up in Western countries who also weren’t that interested? Some of them suddenly were. I remember one experience on the west coast of the US. A guy that I kid you not, looked like and was as beautiful as Bradley Cooper messaged me. My initial thought was he was a catfish - he was a little discreet, but never even having the opportunity to meet someone like this, I agreed to meet him which in itself is a reflection of how this systemic racism led me to take more of a risk than I usually would because he’s white. But turns out he bloody well looked like Bradley Cooper - tall, handsome, a bit scruffy, a really beautiful smile and in really good shape. I even remember telling him at some point how strange this was to me, because a guy like him would never go for me back home. "Really?" He said, "that's crazy."

I know you want to know some juicy details, but that's not the point of this. This encounter wasn’t the only one that really opened my eyes. Not that every guy I met was a Bradley Cooper, no, but seemingly out of nowhere, I was actually a little desirable. For the first time in my life, I was feeling kind of attractive.

But it wasn't just the random gay guys I met, it was the broad spectrum of people I got to know - I'm talking skateboarders at a hostel, and deliveroo riders and Broadway actors and Jewish journalists and Singaporean mums and other diasporic Asians with pride in their heritage. Suddenly my ethnicity didn't feel like such a barrier. And suddenly I felt comfortable embracing my cultural background instead of trying to overcome it.

Coming back to Sydney definitely felt like an adjustment. Things hadn’t changed here - Asians were relegated to near the bottom of the gay male hierarchy and there was still a clear racial divide, but I had changed. I didn’t feel unworthy or undeserving anymore, I just realised gay Sydney is a little bit racist. So let’s change that. One preference at a time.

This episode was hosted, produced, written and edited by me Jay Ooi

Special thanks to everyone we spoke to for this episode Denton, Vincent and James.

If you want to learn more about this topic I’ve got a bunch of readings and links in the show notes - head to shoesoff.net

You can also join the conversation on facebook and instagram at shoesoffau

If you liked Shoes Off please subscribe, you can find it wherever you get your podcasts, and that friend who needs some cultural asian goodness? Let them know about the show. Thanks for listening, and catch you next episode.

Guests

Denton Callander - http://dentoncallander.com/

James

Vincent

Resources

Gay masculinity - https://www.them.us/story/gay-men-masculinity-mental-health?utm_social-type=owned&utm_medium=social&utm_brand=them&utm_source=facebook

The feminisation of Asian men - https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/019685999602000204?journalCode=jcia

Just a Preference - https://www.unsworks.unsw.edu.au/primo-explore/fulldisplay?vid=UNSWORKS&docid=unsworks_11722&context=L

Racism on Gay Dating Apps - https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/bnpavv/so-many-gay-dudes-are-depressingly-racist-on-dating-apps

A Fair Game? Racial Bias and Repeated Interaction between NBA Coaches and Players - https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0001839217705375?journalCode=asqa

Sexual racism in gay communities: negotiating the ethnosexual marketplace - https://digital.lib.washington.edu/researchworks/handle/1773/9181

Embodied inter-referencing: encounters with and among “Asian” students in the Australian classroom - https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14649373.2019.1613730

The Crossroads of Race and Sexuality: Date Selection among Men in Internet “Personal” Ads - https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0192513X03256607

Pointless Diversity Training: Unconscious Bias, New Racism and Agency - https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0950017017719841

LGBT Equality and Sexual Racism - https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3201366