Jul 2

Jul 2 S02E08 - Making the mix work (at work)

Transcript

Jay Ooi

Diversity and Inclusion - it seems to be a hot topic in many workplaces, and rightly so. Australia is a very diverse country and we’re seeing more higher educated people of colour joining the professional workforce. But what do we mean when we talk about Diversity and inclusion, and why the need for it?

Thinesh

In my interview at a previous organization I worked for, the general counsel during a coffee catch-up said, "You're not a Tamil Tiger, are you?"

Jay Ooi

How do eastern ways of working differ from western ways,

Lawrence Puang

So, in the Western world it talks about the squeaky wheel gets the grease, right?

Jay Ooi

and what can we do about it?

Catherine

Just don't turn up. Don't send your team to these events. Don't sponsor them.

Jay Ooi

Hello and welcome to Shoes Off, stories about Asian Australian culture. I’m Jay Ooi.

We’re seeing a lot of companies talking about Diversity and Inclusion or D&I, and the aim is to make minorities feel safe in the workplace, as well as to attract different sorts of people - whether they be customers or employees. But what exactly is it?

what do we mean when we say diversity and inclusion?

Catherine Ngo

Diversity is basically a mixed bunch of things or people. Just think of a fruit salad or something like that. You've got your kiwis, your pineapples, your oranges and all that, and they all come in different levels of juiciness and shapes and sizes. Inclusion is when there is that sense of belonging and when everyone is listening to each other and treating each other with respect. That's the difference. You can have basically a fruit salad but the dressing is pretty shit. The dressing is the inclusion.

Jay Ooi

Yeah, the thing that binds everyone together.

Catherine Ngo

That binds everyone together. That's right.

My name is Cathy Ngo. I'm a writer, presenter and a small business owner. My background is in corporate HR, so I spent more than 10 years in top ASX companies, just helping people basically get rid of people.

I'm Australia born to Vietnamese parents. My family came to Australia as refugees.

Jay Ooi

How is your Vietnamese?

Catherine Ngo

It's all right. It's pretty good as an Australian born.

My parents were always like, "When you're at home, you speak Vietnamese." At that time, I hated that because when you go to school, totally English is seen as much more sexier.

Jay Ooi

Now There is a bit of a history around D&I. In Australia, we passed our Racial Discrimination Act of 1975 which made it illegal to discriminate on the basis of race when it comes to employment, but we’ve seen a bit of a movement more recently. So where has this come from?

Catherine Ngo

There's a lot of talk about it at the moment because companies need to be reflective of the customers that they are serving. At the moment in the landscape, we've seen the leadership space in media, it's not reflective. There's a problem in that because representation matters. When you think about the leadership space and media, they are the voices that we look up to, we get thought leadership from. They're the people that influence our policies, government, etc. It's really important to have a mix of voices, not because it's the right thing to do, but also because you want innovation as well and you want just a very meaningful discussion. You can't have that when everyone just nods and agrees to each other. I think when you put it that way, it's like, oh yeah, that makes sense.

Jay Ooi

So yes, even though racial discrimination is illegal, we’re still seeing an under representation of minorities in the workplace. In fact, A 2019 survey from Australian National University found that even though Asian-Australians make up 12% of the population, we only comprise 3.1% of senior leadership positions at companies, universities and community organisations. It’s always been imbalanced. It’s just that now, instead of sitting back and accepting it, we want to see things change.

Catherine Ngo

I think if you really want a meaningful discussion and for people to listen, I think we need to acknowledge other people's viewpoints as well. Other people's viewpoints might not be right, but they're entitled to their viewpoints too, and I think it's just having a balanced view.

Jay Ooi

But what does racial discrimination even look like in the 21st century?

what are the stereotypes when it comes to hiring Asians from the initial looking at the CV all the way to when they're at the interview?

Catherine Ngo

There's a lot of unconscious bias, and we all have them, but it's so critical at that recruitment stage because obviously that's where you bring people into the organization. This is speaking from my experience as a recruiter in the past. You're basically getting hundreds of CVs for a particular role. There are so many stereotypes that people make. For example, if someone is from India then there's this assumption that they might not be able to speak English properly, and they're very process-orientated, and they might not be able to work as a team. I've seen colleagues even say this outright.

Also, names as well. There's people who whiten their names so that they can get on the short list, and then those that don't whiten their names, again, there's that assumption that they don't speak English properly when they could speak English fluently. There's a lot of unconscious bias in that regard.

Jay Ooi

Ah unconscious bias. It’s so tricky because it’s unconscious - it’s not necessarily malicious by intent, but it’s nevertheless present in the way we see people. Here in the CV stage, getting a hint of one’s nationality automatically paints a picture in the recruiter’s head, whether they intend to or not. So, yes, having a foreign name can make it more difficult to get the interview, but once you’ve got the job? Unconscious bias can show up in the workplace as well.

Thinesh

I think there's two examples I would probably draw upon.

Jay Ooi

That’s Thinesh, a lawyer who grew up in Canada, studied at Bond University QLD and is now a citizen here.

Thinesh

In my interview at a previous organization I worked for, the general council during a coffee catch-up said, "You're not a Tamil Tiger, are you?" And I'm sure she didn't mean anything by it, but there's obviously a lot of perceptions around what she thinks a Tamil person is.

Jay Ooi

What is a Tamil Tiger?

Thinesh

A Tamil Tiger is formerly known as a terrorist organization in Sri Lanka. However, I'd like to clarify that UN has taken the Tamil Tigers off the terrorist list, in case anyone was confused.

I think an analogous and more relevant example that people can draw upon is if a Muslim person of color went to an interview and the interviewer said, "You're not a terrorist, are you?" Or if a woman's wearing a hijab or a burka in an interview, and the interviewer said, "You're not hiding a bomb under there, are you?" I think that's how it came across to me. She was laughing along, and she didn't mean anything ill by it or at least I hope she didn't, she wasn't trying to be malicious, but it definitely gave me insight into an underlying way of thinking about Tamil people and the things she associates with Tamil people. And I found that to be quite problematic.

Jay Ooi

You might be thinking, it was all in good fun. What is actually problematic about what she said?

Thinesh

I think what it communicated to me was she had certain expectations of what a Tamil person could be in Australia. And those expectations are asylum seekers, terrorists, people who are a drain on society, and I was in a situation where I was applying for an in-house counsel role at a major Australian bank with certain credentials that went against the default expectations that she had or what Tamil people were. And the problem is the default expectations she has of what Tamil people... what she thinks Tamil people are.

Jay Ooi

Right. And so she was saying it as this is what I expected you to be, but you're not.

Thinesh

Yeah. In a very-

Jay Ooi

In a joke.

Thinesh

... jovial way. She's trying to be cute

Jay Ooi

But it's not cute.

Thinesh

But it's not cute.

I'm someone who's quite politically engaged, and I think in any other circumstance I would have roasted her. But the power balance there was obviously different, and so I had to just stay quiet and laugh along.

Jay Ooi

Yes, power dynamics can often make it difficult to express how we feel in these sort of situations, and even if she meant no harm, her underlying assumptions show that she probably doesn’t think people who look like Thinesh belong in the sort of position Thinesh was applying for.

And what's your other example?

Thinesh

The other example is, obviously, I tend to work in very predominantly white institutions and so this kind of experience has carried on all the way from university at Bond all the way up to now, which is when you're interacting with third parties or external parties and you're in a group of white people, or even with one other white person, the questions, the communication all gets directed to the white person and not you. Regardless of the hierarchal arrangement within that group. So, I could be a senior lawyer with a junior paralegal, but deference is given to my white paralegal who's this 20 year old and that's no criticism on 20 year olds, but there's a certain assumption that is made as to who is the responsible person or the person they should be speaking to in this particular group.

Jay Ooi

Have you had this experience before? Where people just assume you’re not as senior or as experienced as you are because they don’t expect someone of your race to have that sort of authority.

Thinesh

There is an assumption that a person of color cannot be someone who can hold power in a professional legal environment... And I think that's what's problematic.

Jay Ooi

So what did Thinesh do?

Thinesh

I think in that circumstance I would try to just go into conversation about the work that I've done on the file, and the work that the other person has done in a particular file. And that immediately communicates to the other party who is the person that has carriage of this particular matter. And I think in those circumstances, I feel a pressure to over-perform to subvert what their expectations are.

Catherine Ngo

I'll give you an example. I'm in a role that's not typically Asian. Now I'm a writer, and that's not typically Asian. I've been questioned before in my writing abilities. Even when I started, one of my jobs, a gentleman in the business asked me, how is my grammar and punctuation and everything? I thought, why are you even asking me this? I'm in a senior writing and editing position. Why are you asking me this? I didn't ask him that, but I thought if I looked different, if I didn't look Asian, then that wouldn't even be a question at all. It wasn't just him. I've been to so many events as well where people have asked me, so what makes you qualified to write this piece? I don't think they mean any malice, but I think it's just because they've got this bias in their head that someone who is petite, Asian and in a job that's not typically Asian, then it seems a bit odd. Also, because sometimes people don't have a filter.

Jay Ooi

I'd love to unpack that a little bit. When that happens, how does that make you feel?

Catherine Ngo

It makes me feel ... Well, I used to be quite fired up about it because it's like, who the hell are you? Who do you think you are to ask me that? Now that I'm older ... Well, I'm not that old. I look very young.

Jay Ooi

She does, by the way.

Catherine Ngo

Yeah. That's the good thing about being Asian. You look 10 years younger. We're a very good investment.

Jay Ooi

Yes.

Catherine Ngo

It makes me feel that there is so much more work to do to educate people because sometimes, they may not realize what they say. I think if we were to eloquently ask them questions back just so that they can realize, holy shit, I shouldn't have asked that.

Jay Ooi

What sort of questions? What's a good response to something like that?

Catherine Ngo

For example, I could say, "Oh, what makes someone qualified to write this piece? Who do you think?" Something like that. Asking them questions back like that. A question with a question.

Jay Ooi

Yes Cathy too has experienced cases of unconscious bias, and I know these stories shouldn’t shock me, in fact that same ANU study found that 82% of Asian-Australians report that they have experienced discrimination in our country either in the workplace or as a customer, but not having experienced much of this in the workplace myself, I still find these stories rather chilling. But sometimes it’s not just unconscious bias, it’s different cultures colliding with different people trying to get along and work together.

Lawrence Puang

Look, I think the workplace, at the time, I was attracted to the great people that worked there, but one of the things that sort of stuck out at me was, say, for example, the common interests that you would have outside of work.

Jay Ooi

That’s Lawrence Puang, Executive at data analytics company Quantium. He started there 14 years ago when the company was just 15 people and they were predominantly white males.

Lawrence Puang

So, a lot of my colleagues were into the NRL at the time, the Super League, cricket, a lot of those sports, whereas I probably enjoyed sports like basketball a lot more.

And because we didn't have these aligned interests, building relationships outside of that was a lot more challenging with some of my other colleagues. Even our taste in music. People in the office tended to like rock, or heavy metal, or whatever it was, whereas I liked my R&B, I liked my dance music, those sorts of things.

Jay Ooi

Lawrence found himself gravitating towards the other people of colour in his workplace, but he wanted to make an effort to fit in and bond with his colleagues, so he adapted.

Lawrence Puang

I started to get into understanding their interests. So, as an example, I started joining their tipping competitions, their fantasy sports teams. So, SuperCoach, or back then it was Dream Team at the time.

I entered that game just so I got a bit more of an understanding of the sport, and paid a little bit more attention to the sport, so when they came in and talked about it on Monday morning, I knew what they were talking about and I could participate in some of those conversations. Equally, around, we had a AFL, a netball tipping comp, at the same time, so, got into that.

Music wise, I started listening to some of their music as well. I remember coming along to a Metallica concert. I mean, gee, bloody hell, I never thought I'd go to a Metallica concert, but it just helped me connect a lot more with my colleagues.

Jay Ooi

Yepp, Lawrence started to take an interest in the things his colleagues were interested in so that he could be more a part of the team. And he introduced them to some parts of his culture too.

Lawrence Puang

Vice versa, what I started doing was organizing night outs and I took them to eat hot-pot for the first time. I remember one of our first hot-pot dinners and they loved it.

Even took them to a karaoke ... Mind you, this was, would have been 13, 14 years ago, and back then, bringing your colleagues to karaoke was a bit weird. They never thought that singing together in a room would be that interesting, but yeah, those are sorts of things that we did.

Jay Ooi

When you think about it now, or, I don't know, do you still follow the sports, do you still like Metallica? Or was it, "I'm just going to do it so I'm a part of the team a bit more."

Lawrence Puang

Yeah, great question. I don't listen to Metallica anymore. I mean, I think there's one good song that I'll probably remember, I don't know any of the others, but no, I don't listen to that music anymore.

In terms of some of the tipping comps, I still enter, but I probably haven't really gotten into the sport as much as I do into my own sports. So, in short, yeah, I think I did those things to try blend myself in, or share some kind of common interest, rather than something that I'm actually interested in.

Jay Ooi

So we see this clash of cultures, and how Lawrence has dealt with it socially. But how does that play out in the ways we work?

Lawrence Puang

I think, even for myself, I had to learn how to adapt to the situation, but I think that can only take you so far. I think Australian corporations aren't geared up, or aren't actually even aware of some of the behavioral differences between the Eastern and Western values, and I think that's just our first step, just to create awareness.

there's been a few books written on this topic, but I think there was this nice phrase that was used, which lines up the Eastern and Western values. So, in the Western world it talks about the squeaky wheel gets the grease, right? So, those who tend to voice their opinions, and who tend to be the loudest, tend to get back, tend to be rewarded as part of that, right?

Whereas, in the Eastern culture there's this concept of the loudest duck gets shot, all right? We're taught to be humble and modest, and not boast and promote about the things that we do. Some of the subtleties that we hear about in some of the subtleties in the language, where he goes, I did this versus we did this, et cetera.

I think that definitely does play out quite a bit. I see a lot of my Asian colleagues in the workplace who, actually, during a meeting, they know the answer, or they have an opinion, but they don't tend to voice it or say anything, and that conversation tends to be dominated by the Western counterpart. That's just one example.

Catherine Ngo

I was taught to be quiet and not speak up until I had something valuable to contribute. I think as a woman as well, it was socially acceptable in my family to be quiet, to be as quiet as possible because you're meant to be a good little girl. It makes it hard to be ... I think having that upbringing, it makes it hard when we go into the workplace. Unfortunately, the way that ... Not unfortunately I should say. The way Western cultures work is that we talk about things. Even if they're little or big, we voice them. We voice our opinions. If you have that Eastern mentality, then it's going to be too late. Because you're seen as quiet, you're seen unconsciously or consciously by some people that maybe you don't have anything valuable to contribute.

Jay Ooi

I know we’re speaking very broadly here, but I think Lawrence and Cathy make valid points - there are differences in more Eastern ways of working than how we generally work in Australia. The idea of submission to your seniors vs challenging them and making noise.

Catherine Ngo

Another thing is that... Eastern cultures, we're not taught soft skills. We're not taught communication skills. We're taught to just nod our heads and agree to anyone that is superior to us and not to challenge that. Whereas, in Western cultures, it's okay to challenge your parents... I think that whole challenging and asking important questions needs to be developed.

Jay Ooi

I don’t know about you, but Cathy hits the nail on the head for me. I did not know how to talk to different sorts of people until I was forced to talk to different sorts of people at university. And these soft skills are so important in the workplace. So how do we deal with the fact that our different upbringings lead to ways of working?

Catherine Ngo

I think it's very individual. I think as a leader, we need to recognize that there are some people because of some cultural barriers that they hold back a little bit. It's just making that aware. It could be on a one-on-one basis like say, "Hey, Jerry, I noticed that you're a bit quiet. Is it because you don't understand the project? How can I" ... Rather than make assumptions, just ask the employee, "What can I do to support you? How can I bring out the best in you in the job that you're doing?"

Lawrence Puang

personally, I would like to see, just say, firstly, just increasing awareness of the different behaviors that people from different backgrounds might have.

I think one of the benefits of the women's network, that I have heard, was that just meeting other people who ... It was just comforting to people that they've met someone else who was feeling the same way, so that they don't feel alone, they don't feel like they were the only ones feeling that. I think it brings a lot of relief as well to individuals who able to come together and share similar opinions.

I think, from that, we can then help provide a bit more support on how do you build yourself, or how do you build your own confidence, or how do you adjust or adapt your behaviors that it better suits the workplace.

Thinesh

And it's about creating community, creating strategy, and then having that infiltrate the organization within the individual teams that you're working in. So at the current organization that I'm in, there is a serious lack of conversation and awareness around cultural competencies.

Jay Ooi

Yes, organisations do have a role to play in supporting different ways of working through awareness and through community. But it’s not just on businesses to do everything.

Catherine Ngo

Also, I think Asians aren't, I'm generalizing here, but not very good networkers. Networking is so important when you want a senior position because you need to be in that position of influence, and you can't be if you're invisible. I think there's that other element of trying to work extra harder to be visible.

Lawrence Puang

I'm also a big believer in self-development, all right? So let's just say you're not confident speaking in meetings, or you find that you tend to not like to talk over your colleagues, et cetera. There are some little tactics I've used, which was, to my old boss, English guy, very witty, very charismatic, any time I went along to a client meeting with him I could never get a word in, and not because he didn't let me, it's only because he was so charismatic that the whole room just gravitated towards him.

What I started to do was, before I went to a client meeting I would just have a chat with him and said, "Hey, do you mind if I take over this section of the meeting, or talk about this part?" Et cetera. He was like, "Yeah, great. I love that you said that. I don't want to talk the whole meeting. Go for it." So, he would hand it over to me and I managed to get my voice in, and I built my own confidence over time doing that.

Jay Ooi

If we want to be more visible in the workplace, there is some onus on us to make ourselves more visible. So we as well as organisations have a responsibility to help bridge the cultural gap in the workplace. But what about that old chestnut, unconscious bias?

Catherine Ngo

There's more Johns, CEOs than anything else.

Jay Ooi

That’s more CEO’s named John, than all female CEO’s.

Catherine Ngo

I think it's unfortunate but it comes down to understanding the cross cultural barriers and also developing a leadership pipeline as well and making sure that leadership pipeline is diverse. It starts from the bottom. It's like building a house or something, having a solid foundation in building this person up so that they are visible.

Jay Ooi

Yes, businesses can make sure their leadership and leadership pipeline is diverse. Lawrence is starting up a Diversity and Inclusion initiative at his workplace, but it’s still in the very early stages. And Thinesh?

Thinesh

So, I'm in a process of developing a program within my organization to get other people aware of what unconscious bias is. The discrimination that people of color, LGBTQ, women face in the workplace.

So, at the moment I am trying to start with just a legal and governance function where I am running a fireside chat on intersectionality.

Jay Ooi

What's fireside?

Thinesh

Just a casual fireside chat. Literally what it sounds like.

Jay Ooi

You guys have a fire in the-

Thinesh

No. We definitely don't. It's more of a colloquial term. But it's essentially a panel discussion where you get drinks and foods, just a really comfortable social environment. But in that process they get a lot of information as well.

Jay Ooi

How easy is it to start something up like you've done? If someone's in an organization where there's not really much diversity inclusion stuff happening with their HR, and they wanted to start something like what you're doing, how easy is it to do? What do they need to do?

Thinesh

I think the best thing to do is reference the countless number of studies that have been done to show the economic benefits for organizations when they have good D&I policies and programs in place. I think what you really need is... It's a common saying, it starts from the top. And so you need to get your managers and team leaders to endorse this and support you in initiating these programs within the workplace. That's the way I did it, which is I pointed out to the fact that when you have leaders that look like the workforce, it's a lot more transparent about what issues get to the top, and a lot more changes can occur to actually benefit the organization, which then makes the organization much more profitable.

Jay Ooi

Yes, a more diverse workplace has been shown to create significantly higher earnings as well as faster decision making, and at the end of the day, your organisation probably cares a lot about making more money faster. We’ll link to some of these studies in the show notes. And these D&I initiatives don’t have to be big either. A regular gathering can help others realise they’re not alone, and can at least bring awareness of unconscious bias to anyone who attends. And what other initiatives are out there? Well Cathy has started a platform called Keynoteworthy which connects a diverse range of speakers with conferences and event organisers.

Catherine Ngo

I found that after going to a lot of events and conferences and trying to cover events that there wasn't anything particularly exciting or insightful. The reason why is because all the conferences and events are the same. They've got the same type of audience. They've got the same type of speakers, the same show and tell, eye of the tiger songs, same providers, everything, the same keynote speakers.

There's not much innovation in that space. That's why I was like, holy shit, I should create something. I should create a solution to this problem.

That's why I created Keynoteworthy, and it's my side hustle for now. It's grown massively in the last couple of months.

Jay Ooi

Yes, conferences play a big role in the corporate world, and Cathy wants to see diversity in these line-ups too.

One of the reasons that I think that panel ... for not having a diverse panel is that they would say, the people in stage, these are the most qualified people to talk about this. What would you say to them?

Catherine Ngo

I'd just say you're fucking lazy. No, I wouldn't actually say that, but it is laziness. As I say, well, I've got a directory of lots of amazing talented people in a diverse range of industries. The talent is here. You're just not looking hard enough.

Jay Ooi

I think that's something that I've heard from people who have been recruiting to you and talking about this, is that the talent exists out there. It's just the pools that you're looking in or the people that you're surrounded by are not the diverse people that exist.

Catherine Ngo

That's right. When you have that unconscious bias, you have that tunnel vision just looking at the same things.

Jay Ooi

For us as participants, is it then our duty to ... If a lineup is very homogenous to actually just not go and not support that?

Catherine Ngo

Yeah. I think everyone has an obligation to that as well. It's not just up to the event organizers, but everyone has a duty. If you see an event, you look at the agenda and you think, okay, they're all software companies, or they're not people that actually have credibility or it's just all same, same. Just don't turn up. Don't send your team to these events. Don't sponsor them. If you are a speaker and you are invited to one of these events, just say no. I know someone else that's more qualified than me. Let's just say a female or a person of color, I would want them to go instead. Everyone has a responsibility towards this.

Jay Ooi

Okay, so Diversity and Inclusion is a hot topic at the moment, but for good reason. Upper management still doesn’t reflect the diversity of Australia, we’re still facing discrimination in the workplace, and we were also brought up in a different culture with different ways of working. Yes it is up to organisations to develop people to be their best selves and to create awareness of cultural differences, but you know what? We’re a part of organisations as well, so we can play a part in this, as well as developing ourselves to stand out more in the workplace. And we can support other minorities and start groups to talk about D&I if our companies don’t currently have them. And similarly, we can support conferences that reflect the community they’re talking to. And I recognise that not everyone has the opportunity to speak out or make a change, and if that’s you, I’m really sorry things are that difficult. But change is happening, if very slowly.

Catherine Ngo

I think we've come quite far away. For example, in media at the moment ... Back in the days, I looked up to Lee Lin Chin because she had just so much sass and she was the only Asian woman on TV, even though it's SBS, but still she owned her voice because she had a bit of an accent. Her original style and presence, everything. I really looked up to her because I thought, oh, maybe I could be like a TV presenter one day...

Now, the Today Show, as an example, has a reporter who's indigenous and also an Asian lady as well as a news reader. I think that's fabulous because it's visibly showing to the world that, hey, these voices matter. It shouldn't matter, but it does matter.

Thinesh

I think for good organizations to thrive, they need to have a diversity of thought. And that's becoming more and more apparent in the current era that we're living in because they're realizing that these homogenous views of 30 white men running an organization, that actually isn't beneficial to anybody. And if anything is actually detrimental.

Lawrence Puang

It will take time for any real change to take place. I mean, we've been tackling gender diversity for decades, right? It's not something that's going to happen overnight, but the best place to start is create that awareness.

Jay Ooi

That’s Asians and the workplace.

This episode of Shoes Off was written, produced and edited by me Jay Ooi.

Special thanks to all our guests Cathy Ngo, Thinesh and Lawrence Puang, as well as Tina who I unfortunately couldn’t fit in.

In the show notes for this episode at shoesoff.net you can find links to Cathy’s business Keynoteworthy, or head to keynoteworthy.com.au, as well as Thinesh’s own podcast on queer media Read to Filth. You can also find some studies on diversity and inclusion, as well as the ANU survey on racial discrimination.

If you would like to start something up in your workplace, I’m no expert but feel free to reach out @shoesoffau on instagram and facebook and I will try to put you in touch with someone with a bit more experience than me.

If you liked Shoes Off please subscribe, you can find it wherever you get your podcasts, or head to shoesoff.net

And if you know someone who is all about the workplace that’s this amazing mixed salad with a scrumptious dressing, give this episode a share.

Thanks, and catch you next episode.

Asian people in senior leadership. I just wondered for a second, I was like, is it because we've had a bigger influx of Asians over the past, say, 20, 30, 40 years maybe, and they're just growing up and they haven't actually been able to rise to the ranks yet? Is it a reflection of ... Sorry. What am I saying? Is it because there weren't as many in the country before to be in the senior leadership positions? Is that why we haven't seen in there or is it really an unconscious bias thing that is preventing Asians from rising up the ranks?

Catherine Ngo

It's not a talent issue. It's discrimination. It's unconscious bias. I've spoken to so many people, and they've said that. It's unfortunate that it has happened. I'll give you an example. A lady who has worked for the top companies in the world. She's originally Malaysian, worked in the UK, worked in the US, very valuable, strong international experience. When she comes here, she has to take a huge step back. Her English is perfect, but because she's working in the tech space, which is mostly dominated by men, everything that she says is picked apart, even if it's just very subtle. Her peers, it's not picked apart. It's just little things like that.

Also, I think when you are in a position of privilege, you don't see anything wrong. I think I'm lucky in the sense that I would say that I'm quite assimilated because I'm Australian born and obviously grew up here and spent majority of my life here. People who are really migrants, even if their English is perfect, I think ... It's different types of Asians as well. There's also South Asians. They've just been discriminated so much. I don't see that. At first, I found it hard to see because that's never happened to me. I think, oh my, God, that's my privilege talking, and I can't say that it doesn't happen.