Feb 4

Feb 4 S03E08 - Bharatanatyam: Project Caste

Transcript

Arj

I can't recall my precise first memory because as far as I can remember Bharatanatyam has always been there since a very early time. What I can recall with some fondness is my mum's recollection of my experience of Bharatanatyam. When my cousin was performing her, arangetram in Melbourne. It was one of those early arangetrams that was with live music. The second arangetram in Melbourne to have had live music, and I was a two-year-old boy and my mother and father were very nervous about sitting in this grand hall with all the pomp and ceremony and trying to keep a young baby quiet. But apparently I sat on her lap like a doll and watched the whole thing and my mum always says that ever since that moment, I have always had this affinity for Bharatanatyam and Carnatic Music.

Thinesh

Bharatanatyam has become a touch point for many South Asian children looking to connect with their tradition and culture.

Priyanka

I remember going to an auntie's house and there was a really large studio space that we went into.

Priyanka

And then here I was in a dance studio with all these unfamiliar sounds and smells and was told this is your culture.

Thinesh

But when this dance form is learned to connect with tradition and culture, whose tradition and culture is it?

Arj

Again, I can't recall my early introduction to the history or the context of Bharatanatyam. I think, however, it feels like just a long-ingrained understanding of it being a 2000-year-old art form with this somewhat unbroken history that it had its development, that it was apparently revived in the early 20th century into the art form that we today know as Bharatanatyam. Can I say with any certainty when that occurred? Probably not.

Thinesh

What is the history?

Priyanka

I didn't think I did ever hear about the history of the art form.

Thinesh

Who holds the power in propagating Bharatanatyam? Why do they hold the power? And Who is being erased in the process?

Nrithya

I believe that Project Bharatanatyam, or Project Reinvention of Bharatanatyam is actually Project Caste.

Thinesh

Hello and welcome to Shoes Off, stories about Asian Australian culture. I’m Jay Ooi.

Jay

Nice try - That’s Thinesh Thillai - my best friend, my rock and inspiration, the reason I live (lol) - I said that because he wrote this script and he is taking the reins on this episode today.

Thinesh

How did I do?

Jay

You’re doing okay - not as good as me. So Thinesh, what are we talking about today?

Thinesh

Caste discrimination is one of those things that you can only understand if you have lived it.

In this episode, we explore how power and status, and in particular, Caste, enables art forms from marginalised communities to be co-opted. And we see how Caste plays out in the diaspora through a style of dance called Bharatanatyam.

Nrithya

I believe that Project Bharatanatyam, or Project Reinvention of Bharatanatyam is actually Project Caste.

Thinesh

This is Nrithya Pillai, a dancer from the Isai Vellalar community, the exact community that Bharatanatyam comes from. She’s an educator and activist who speaks about the history of Bharatnatyam.

Jay

What’s the deal with Project Baratanatyam?

Thinesh

Bharatanatyam in its current form didn’t just materialise out of nothing. There were particular political and social objectives involved to create the artform in its form today. Even the name Bharathanatyam was previously used interchangeably with Sadhir, amongst other terms. However, there was a deliberate decision in the 1930s to rebrand this artform as Bharatanatyam because of the word’s affinity to sanskrit and Brahminism. This fit into a larger narrative of a unified single ‘indian’ identity to facilitate seeking independence from the British. That’s why it’s a project - because it’s trying to achieve a very particular purpose.

Jay

So Project Bharatanatyam is all of these forces behind it and all of the objectives that come with its reinvention.

Nrithya

And why do I say that? Because in establishing this access to everybody else, the access to the hereditary community has been denied. And in it is a lot factors, it includes political, social, and even intellectual. But we have actively erased the contributions of the hereditary community to create this new history for this art form, and create new careers for this art form.

Jay

So a lot of south asians I knew grew up learning Bharatanatyam. How did it get so popular?

Thinesh

So to fully understand its popularity, we need to do a bit of history. The version of Bharatanatyam that we know today used to be called Sadir, and it’s a bit different from the way we know it now. It was a sensual form of dance performed exclusively by some women from certain courtesan castes - like the Isaivellalar women.

Jay

Who are these Isaivellalar women?

Thinesh

This is a particular matrilineal caste from the Tamil Nadu/Thanjavur region in India. They had the practice of marking or selecting some women to live a life dedicated to the arts, with, shall we say, unconventional sexuality for the time. These women did not need to submit to the patriarchal norms of marriage. Whilst this selection practice was in some ways oppressive and tied to a caste framework, many of these women were respected as repositories of art and were women of high culture. They danced and sang in temples, courts, and public spaces.

Jay

Right, so these Isaivellalar women were quite well respected, and had a form of dance that was their own, called Sadir which we now call Bharatanatyam.

But once the British arrived in India, their social status started to change and their dance form wasn’t held in the same high regard. This was because once Victorian ideas of morality entered colonised India, it infiltrated the minds of the people living there. Isaivelllar women, their art and their unconventional sexuality came under severe scrutiny.

Jay

I was wondering when the british would arrive to make things worse.

Thinesh

As a result of the British influence, powerful upper-caste Indians also started to change their views. There was a political campaign against the courtesan community’s supposed immorality. With all of this happening, their social status started to wane to the point that they were referred to as Devadasi. It originally meant servant to God but the term Devadasi was used to gloss over many communities from different caste locations, and used to criminalise and stigmatise these communities - when India’s- identity as a nation - was in question. The term Devadasi is a slur and it branded these women as ‘prostitutes’.

Now, pretty much all women who did not behave the way the British thought they should behave, like the Isai Vellalar women, were looked down upon and stigmatised.

Jay

So because of colonial british influence, the Isaivellalar community were painted and seen as immoral, and so they became stigmatised as Devadasi.

Thinesh

This eventually led to legislation that meant they could no longer practice their art and perform it, which meant that they had no source of income. Because of this, many were forced into sex work as a way to make ends meet, which furthered this perception of Isai Vellalar women as immoral.

This is partly why Isai Vellalar is the preferred term now by many from the community, rather than, Devadasi. The term Isai Vellalar was a deliberate political move of self identification, and, a rejection of the slur and stigma of the word, Devadasi.

Jay

Right, so these women who danced Sadir went from being quite well respected to being ostracised in mainstream society and stripped of one of their sources of income, which was dancing Sadir.

Thinesh

Enter Rukmini Devi Arundale. In 1929, Rukmini, an upper-caste high status woman from India, travelled to Australia and met the great Russain ballerina Anna Pavlova. This sparked an interest in dance, and with a few ballet moves under her belt, Rukmini Devi returned to India where she became interested in this hereditary art form. She is often credited for the coinage of the term Bharatanatyam along with E Krishna Iyer and V Ragavan, all highly influential brahmin cultural nationalists, even though there is proof that the term Bharatanatyam was in usage in the courtesan communities much earlier. This name was chosen as it fit the narrative claiming to revive Bharatanatyam from a 2000 year old text. Subsequently Rukmini Devi, established the International Academy of the Arts, now known as the Kalakshetra, where students, namely from upper-caste, Hindu backgrounds, could come and learn various art forms, including Bharatanatyam.

Jay

Right so Rukmini Devi and her peers discover Sadir, choose to call it Bharatanatyam and are then kind of seen as the founder of modern day Bharatanatyam. And this is the same Bharatanatyam that a lot of my south asian friends practice right?

Thinesh

Most likely. And as a result, Rukmini Devi, became one of the few faces of Bharatanatyam on the global stage. She became one of the most influential people who is credited for the ‘revival and resuscitation’ of Bharatanatyam and its present elite status.

Jay

So while isaivellalar women were being legally prevented from practicing Bharatanatyam, which originates in their community, a high status woman with better resources learns this artform, teaches it to others, and gets the shiny medal. And then my friends here in Sydney who then learn this style of dance essentially credit Rukmini Devi? This sounds like cultural appropriation. But with no white people involved?

Thinesh

Yeah - so cultural appropriation occurs where members of a dominant culture take elements from a culture or people who have been systematically oppressed by that dominant group. This appropriation is all about power dynamics, but it doesn’t always come from a power dynamic relating to race or class or sexuality. There are other power dynamics that can contribute to cultural appropriation.

It is also important to note that appropriation is not always a one time act. It can be a continuing practice. It’s not just a white washed history of dance, but also denying opportunities to hereditary dancers, belittling them for their skills not being ‘classical’ enough, dressing up as a devadasi to perform on stage, or playing a devadasi role without consultation or inclusion in the process.

Nrithya

A new set of performers predominantly upper caste, upper-class women were encouraged to take part and provided access to this art form, with the help of the men from the hereditary communities who helped pass on the tradition of dance from the hereditary community to the women of the upper-caste.

Jay

So the Issai Vellalar men were teaching the upper caste women this artform?

Thinesh

In the past, many Issai Vellalar men taught upper caste women a version of what is now called Bharatanatyam, including Nrithya’s grandfather. It’s also important to acknowledge that when Rukmini Devi ‘reinvented’ Bharatanatyam, she also created a version of this artform for those who identify as men with a slightly different style, eeeeeven thooough, this used to be something that was exclusively practiced by women.

So now - what we think of when we think Bharatanatyam - is actually being taught in the appropriated upper caste format - the aesthetics, the customs, are all determined by brahminic ideals.

Jay

Right, and then these upper caste teachers then bring it to Australia and teach it to people here perpetuating an upper caste version of this artform. So what makes someone upper caste - actually let’s take a step back - what exactly is Caste?

Right, and the Bharatanatyam that a lot of my south Asian friends learn is from these upper caste teachers who then brought it to Australia. But how did Bharatanatyam get so popular?

Thinesh

Here is Mudit Vyas explaining what caste is. He’s a researcher at Monash University who focuses on the anti-caste movement.

Mudit Vyas

So, let's assume that caste is a basis of discrimination like race, but it's not dependent on your skin color, it is instead dependent on what family you're born in, what name you're born with, what your ancestors' caste was. So yeah, it's basically accident of birth, and it assigns... In ancient times, it assigned you a certain occupation and you couldn't break those caste boundaries or occupation and there was certain stigma that came with being born in a certain caste.

Mudit Vyas

So, to begin with, there were four divisions, or the [varnas 00:02:10]. The people who were the oppressors at the top, which is my community, and that call themselves the Brahmins... are the priest class, are the priest caste.

Jay

So right up the top of the proverbial caste ladder, you have the Brahmins, and that’s the caste that Rukmini Devi, the reinventor of Bharatanatyam, was from. She was Brahmin.

Then there are the Kshatriyas, who are the warrior caste. Vaishyas, who were farmers, traders and merchants, and the Shudras, who were labourers which make up about 51% of the total population of India.

Mudit Vyas

And anyone outside that hierarchy was basically untouchable. And untouchability was outlawed in the 20th century in India, but the stigma of caste remains, because caste wasn't outlawed.

Jay

So caste is what you’re born into, and there are four main divisions, with anyone outside of that being so dirty that they’re untouchable.

So caste is this structure of predefined rankings that you’re born into. They’re not these discreet ideas that people are aware of but don’t talk about or name, caste is a very defined and labeled hierarchy with four main divisions, and these divisions help maintain this hierarchy, with anyone outside if that being so dirty that they’re untouchable.

Thinesh

It’s probably a good time to say that people who were formerly known as “untouchables” now self-identify, and are collectively referred to as Dalits, which means broken, but resilient.

Mudit Vyas

In the 20th century, was when India started realizing that there is this gross under representation of people that exists in its jobs and its education. And the stigma that comes with that under representation and untouchability is now practiced in all of its contemporary forms based on what family you're born in.

Mudit Vyas

And so within these divisions, each of these divisions, there are thousands of castes. And all of them are hierarchically arranged one on top of the other or one below the other, and everyone on top is oppressing everyone right below them.

Jay

So there’s a really structured and rigid hierarchy that is caste.

Thinesh

And it impacts every aspect of life.

Jay

Wow okay - so where does this hierarchy come from?

Mudit Vyas

It's a complicated question, again. So, a lot of people ask me this question and I've always said that if you're from South Asia and you identify as a Hindu, there is an angle of being able to... Not being able to... Just identifying as a Hindu is also problematic, because the caste system is sanctioned in the Hindu scriptures. The most... The oldest Hindu scriptures are rooted in the Vedas... They sanction the caste system.

Thinesh

The Vedas are a body of hindu texts originating in ancient india, and considered some of the oldest authorities on morality.

Mudit

I mean, they sanction the varna system which is the divisions I talked about. The Brahmins on top and then the business class and the warrior class and the Shudras or the working class. That was identified and written down over 2000 years ago in Hindu scriptures and Hindus still abide by those scriptures.

Jay

What, so this concept of caste is over thousands of years old?

Thinesh

Yeah, this is why you need to do more south Asian episodes!

Jay

You’re right.

Mudit Vyas

So it is probably the only religion in the world, as far as I can tell, that sanctions this kind of apartheid and it still is recognized as a religion within subcontinent and across the world. I mean, I still wonder why it hasn't been dismantled or at least reformed. So yeah, it finds legitimacy, the caste system finds it legitimacy in Hindu scriptures. And so anyone who says or calls themselves Hindu needs to understand that. That either they need to reform or they need to call out their own religion.

Jay

So caste is really rooted in Hindu scriptures.

Thinesh

So when Rukmini Devi, a woman from an upper caste background, and other people in her milieu, learned the artform and started propagating it, guess what happened?

Jay

I don’t know, what happened?

Thinesh

They took things out they didn’t like, namely erotic and sensual elements, and added things they did like, like gods and deities from hindu mythology.

Nrithya

I believe that when the reinvention happened, what happened was a bunch of people who were Brahmins decided to clean this art form. So say it very simply, they said, "We're cleaning this art form. We're sanitizing this art form, taking away unwanted elements," which included eroticism, which also included the bodies of women that it was on originally, which included my ancestors. So they decided to clean this art form, and they created something new. So this idea that the new Bharatanatyam was not for us, was not for the hereditary women, was established by this, and clearly we were not part of it.

Nrithya

Today, it has become exclusively Hindu-themed dance form. Something that is used as a propaganda. It's used a vehicle to propagate mythology. Unfortunately with this kind of mythological themes, we kind of get stuck up in this idea of patriarchy and caste, and we don't talk about it.

Nrithya

So this is why call Bharatanatyam as a caste-ridden art form. Today, the performing art form are predominantly upper caste. Predominantly Brahmins. The Sabhais, or the performing places are all controlled by Brahmins. The performers are predominantly Brahmins. It's completely run by the upper caste sections. And if there are non-Brahmins, they are also from the extremely privileged section of the non-Brahmin community. Unless there is exorbitant wealth, one cannot perform this art form. When my ancestors were performing this art form, this was a livelihood.

Thinesh

So now Bharatanatyam is pretty much only performed by Brahmins or people with significant wealth.

Jay

And because Bharatanatyan was no longer a viable livelihood for Isaivellalar women, fewer and fewer of them can pursue it because they don’t have the same resources as the upper caste.

Nrithya

But unfortunately, today, this is not a livelihood, and therefore it becomes impractical for women from the lower caste and classes, to see Bharatanatyam as something that would be professional, that would pay them. So this is one way that the art has been restricted to the upper caste and the upper classes. This is an elitist performing art form that is kept within the fold of the upper caste, predominantly the Brahmins.

And slowly and steadily, women from these communities were taken away from this art form. They were marginalized and were pushed away.

Nrithya

At least by the 60s and 70s, we had nobody. You can actually see the clear decline in the number of Arangetrams that happened in the hereditary families, right from the 40s.

Thinesh

So arangetrams are effectively like a graduation ceremony - but in recital form. It’s the culmination of everything you have learned in your Bharatanatyam training.

And also, if you notice the success stories of women in the hereditary families, you can clearly see the Brahminization of these women. They had to really take the support of the powerful. The power structures were in play.

Nrithya

So that's how much of Brahminization is involved, for Isai Vellalar to become successful or even remain in the margines of success. So caste is essentially a huge problem in the idea of classical. So we didn't have this idea of classical before the British left, right? So the idea of classical itself has class in it, and it is a very elitist project where only the class privileged could be part of the decision-making and part of the art itself.

Nrithya

I mean, all of the contributions of hereditary practitioners have been erased. The men from the communities, the names of the women from the communities have been erased. The men represent a very acceptable historical narrative. They perform a part of very acceptable narrative for the Brahmins. I think I come from this kind of omissions and erasures. So I'm the remnants of such erasure. And as somebody who comes from erasure, I also embody erasure.

Jay

So as the Isaivellalar women are pushed out of this art form, now it’s wealthy, upper caste people who have access to it.

Thinesh

and the amount of wealth you have is more often than not, based on your caste privilege, at least in the South Asian context.

But your caste is completely arbitrary. It’s an accident of birth

Your caste privilege is then an arbitrary accident of birth, based on an occupation your ancestor had eeeeons ago, that fell within a hierarchy set out in old hindu texts.

Jay

So a lot of your life is already decided purely based on the caste you’re born into. That’s a lot to unpack.

Thinesh

but we’ve only scratched the surface.

Jay

But this is a podcast about the Asian Australian experience.

Thinesh

South Asian Australian.

Jay

South Asian Australian. How does class and caste play out in Australia.

Thinesh

Unsurprisingly, how it plays out in Australia has a lot to do with how it plays out in India. Here is Mudit again.

Mudit Vyas

Class in India is an idea that is grounded in caste. There is no way to talk about them in... Sociologically you can't separate those two concepts in India.

Mudit Vyas

15% of the population is able to access private education, which is probably the only decent quality education in India right now. And is able to access jobs where, that English is a requirement, and those are going to be the people that are going to have global mobility. If you want to study abroad, if you want to work abroad, if you want to do a scale migration you need a certain level of English, you need a certain level of being able to talk, you need a certain level of savings, which is also grounded... The idea of savings in India is grounded in the idea of owning property. And property ownership's also defined by caste. Even if you're taking out a loan to study abroad, you need property to put as collateral.

Thinesh

Whilst Class and Caste overlap, they are not the same thing. You can be poor and have caste privilege. Conversely, it is possible for a Dalit to become wealthy but still be limited socially of their caste. A rich Dalit may still not be welcome to marry an upper-caste partner. They will be still be barred from becoming priests and will be treated poorly despite their ability to break class boundaries.

And Caste is not limited to South Asia, caste has been found where ever South Asian migrants go. As Mudit highlighted, it’s more likely that people with structural advantages and caste privileges have the opportunity to migrate from India or Sri Lanka to Australia more than others. My parents, for example, are Vellalars in Sri Lanka which is an upper caste community. THis meant that they had structural advantages that allowed them to migrate to Canada where I was grew up, at a time when others couldn’t.

So caste isn’t limited to South Asia, it kind of follows wherever south asian migrants go, since migration itself is more accessible by higher castes. And whilst caste and class overlap, they’re definitely not interchangeable.

Jay

Are Indian and Sri Lankan castes the same?

Thinesh

no they are not, however how caste aspirations play out in the diaspora are interrelated, and we’ll get to that a bit later.

Its also important acknowledge that there are many caste-oppressed migrant communities who have also migrated. They have found they can’t escape the stigma of their caste, even in the diaspora.

Arj

My name is, Arjunan Puveendran.

Arj

I'm a Carnatic vocalist. I'm also... I play the Mridangam.

Arj

I think I'm now aware that caste plays a somewhat unconscious role in my life because I'm privileged. The fact that I live in Australia is probably because of my caste the fact that my parents were able to move to Australia, following the riots in Sri Lanka is probably because of my caste. The fact that I enjoy certain educational privileges. Again, probably because of that caste. There are several other factors there, but certainly, when I look at, peoples who have been left behind in Sri Lanka that did not have the facility to migrate to Australia or people who are, have taken perilous journeys to come to this country for that better life. Not that all of them are from a caste that's different to mine, but from my understanding, many of them have come from those castes.

Jay

So how does caste and class intersect in the diaspora when it comes to Bharatanatyam?

Thinesh

Here’s Nrithya again.

Nrithya

So when you have to get into the art of Bharatanatyam, this idea of Arangetram, and the money that is involved, it's a huge business.

Jay

Omg I’ve actually been to one! There were at least 3 costume changes and it was in like a theatre with tiered seating!

Thinesh

Was she a rich brown girl?

Jay

I mean, I’m pretty sure, yeah. She took a week off school beforehand just to get ready.

Thinesh

The crazy thing here is, I’ve been to a number of arangetrams too and they are elaborate and expensive ordeals. And my experience is not unique in this. Here’s Arj talking about one of his earliest memories in Melbourne.

Arj

When my cousin was performing her, arangetram in Melbourne. It was one of those early arangetrams that was with live music. The second arangetram in Melbourne to have had live music, and I was a two-year-old boy and my mother and father were very nervous about sitting in this grand hall with all the pomp and ceremony and trying to keep a young baby quiet.

Thinesh

Pomp and ceremony is an accurate way to phrase what it has become. Back to Nrithya.

Nrithya

And it is for the money, and there's need for many of the non-Brahmins who move out of India is to properly establish a connection with their culture that they've long lost or they believe that they've lost. And Bharatanatyam is used as a tool to connect with their culture, but unfortunately this is also seeped in a lot of aspirational Brahminism, this idea of having an Arangetram having several costume changes in Arangetram. There's long display of money and these Brahminic traditions. We've gone to the extent of having certain... we have a Brahmin priests be part of Arangetram. We start having this aspirational behavior, and that's exactly how the caste hierarchy is meant to work, and why it is intact.

Jay

This sounds like, the extravagance in modern day gender reveal parties.

Thinesh

It’s unnecessary, OTT and apparently now quite dangerous.

Jay

Right, but it’s like, you feel like you have to put on this big show and it loses the essence of what it’s supposed to be about.

Thinesh

Yeah, and the increasing extravagance of Arangetrams in India means that South Asians in Australia also aspire for those styles of arangetrams as a way of cultural connection. This is partly because it’s now considered a Brahminical artform, and so it’s kind of aspirational because it’s upper caste.

Jay

which then perpetuates caste dynamics in a direct but also indirect way.

Nrithya

And we continue to do these kind of events. And it becomes as though unless you do an Arangetram like this, then you're not a dancer. It's the first step. But the point being that this could be something that can be done in a small scale. This can be in a temple. This can be in a small space. Unfortunately, class and caste play an important again in this, and you do tend to spend to show... you know the bigger the Arangetram, the bigger the dancer is supposed to be. That's the kind of image that is built on an Arangetram.

Jay

So why aren’t South Asian Australians engaging with the history of the artform?

Thinesh

Arj talks about this when I spoke to him about his experience in Australia and why the real history of Bharatanatyam and the Isai Vellalar community may not be told or accurately represented.

Arj

Fundamentally Australia is a country of diasporic peoples from the South Asian region. So the practice of Bharatanatyam here remains largely within the communities that have migrated here. So the understandings of the art form are largely taken, in my view, taken from the time in which these practitioners were engaging with the art forms. So whether they were learning in the 1960s or seventies and have migrated to Australia and started to teach those art forms here, it's the values and the analysis of the art form at that time. That seems to be what's propagated here and has been.

Jay

Remember, having access to migration is already quite strongly tied to caste, so the narratives and histories that are told about Bharatanatyam in Australia are more likely those of upper caste people.

Arj

Now, these are practitioners that have done human service in creating vibrant and thriving art space for that art form. The discourse, however, has always been dominated by this idea of an unbroken tradition that dates back to the Nakha-Shastra and that the art form was, in some form of degradation, due to the associations with sex work that the Devadasi community was somewhat compelled to go into because of the prohibition on temple dancing.

Arj

And as I said, that's a much more nuanced conversation, which I'm speaking in very simplistic terms now, but that seems to be the dominant discourse. So that in 19, I think the twenties or thirties Rukmini Devi Arundale, together with others, such as E. Krishna Iyer and Mungara Yamini Krishnamurthy attached to this theosophist movement were instrumental in reviving the art form from that state of degradation. The idea that there's an element of redemption or saving of the art form, I think, and no discredit to Rukmini Devi, I'm not placed to make a critical comment there, but I think talking about the Australian perspective, that seems to be a common understanding, to what extent the Australian narrative engages critically in unpacking what that involved, I think is quite scant.

Jay

So Arj is saying Diasporic South Asians don’t have a great understanding of the history of Bharatanatyam.

Thinesh

Yes, and more often than not credit it to Rukmini Devi and her peers. Diasporic practitioners rarely critique this sanitised history

Jay

which I guess could be ignorance but that in itself is a privilege of being upper caste.

, which then speaks to their own privilege and then further perpetuates caste privilege. If you aren’t part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

Arj

But I think that the mainstream narrative still exists. Part of that also is because the engagement with Bharatanatyam here, I think serves or has for a long time served a very different purpose, which is the engagement with cultural heritage in and otherwise so-called European land.

Arj

If you focus on the Tamil Community, as an example, particularly if I was to talk from my personal perspective as a Sri Lankan Tamil, where the Tamil heritage was under attack and at the risk of, whether it's you want to refer to as genocide or some form of ostracization, the migrants that came to this country felt a strong need to cling to that sense of cultural heritage and whether it's Bharatanatyam or Carnatic music, teaching of Tamil culture on the Tamil language, the Tamil arts, all of these were considered to be instrumental in preserving or recreating that connectivity to cultural heritage here in Australia. So where that has been given greater prominence, some of the other narratives involved in Bharatanatyam and Carnatic music have not been afforded the same level of importance because they played a secondary role.

Thinesh

What’s funny here is that when Arj talks about Sri Lankan Tamils who use Bharatanatyam as a way to connect to their traditions and culture, they are also forgetting the rich traditions that existed outside of India. Sri Lanka had its own hereditary dancers , tamil speaking women who had migrated from India who who were dancing in courts and temples.

Jay

Right, so when you’re in a country like Australia as a diasporic Indian or Sri Lankan, you may view Bharatanatyam more as a way to connect to your culture, but that often means the history isn’t the focus, whether it’s yours as a Sri Lankan Tamil or that of a hereditary dancer.

Arj

I think it's a disservice to members of the hereditary communities who have been displaced by the effects of the appropriation of the art forms. However, I think in the Australian context that still feels somewhat removed and therefore the damage feels distanced from the people who practice it here, I'm not suggesting that's in any way better or okay, or acceptable. But I think that probably is an important way of understanding the lack of connectivity to that damage. And therefore the fact that we don't engage with a sense of direct damage here, but what I often draw the parallel to is in, or an analogy is Australia's treatment of its first nations peoples, because here we are very privileged to sit on the land of indigenous peoples and we are enjoying the benefits of having appropriated that land from them well, or that certain peoples centuries ago appropriated the land from them and have created a new civilization. And we as migrants to this country are enjoying the benefits of that.

Arj

So I think when you understand it better, you realize that actually, we are continuing to propagate a narrative that continues to ignore the significant contributions made by a certain community in developing these art forms. And also the displacement that they suffered from that appropriation. It doesn't mean that we should stop practicing the art form, but it means that we should consider that with a much more critical perspective and look at how we move forward in a much more positive and respectful way that affords... Well, that recognizes our privilege, but also affords greater respect to the people who have come before us. And that's where I think the Australian and first nations conversation is a really interesting parallel to this conversation from a Bharatanatyam perspective.

Jay

So in Australia as a settler colony, we’ve started a reconciliation process, even if we’re dragging our feet in it. But when it comes to Bharatanatyam’s history?

Thinesh

But for the most part, South Asians in the Diaspora haven’t even put their shoes yet. Their shoes are in fact off, but not for good reasons.

So how do we move forward? Here’s Mudit.

Mudit Vyas

Yeah, so imagine you write a book where you say that I am supreme, I am going to decide how everyone else lives. This is a certain section of the population that nobody can even touch. They will be the ones who will be employed in disposing of the dead and cleaning shit. And they will be the untouchables. And my ancestors wrote this, and this is their caste privilege. That is what Brahmins have done. There is not merit in doing this, in writing this. And they also said, okay, half of the population is going to be working class for the rest of their lives, and their descendants will also be working class. They can't access education. If they access education, they have to be violently put down. And indigenous people are not supposed to live in this society. They are, quote unquote, 'savages'. Brahmins wrote all of this. And they practiced it, for thousands of years. That is equally violent to the Ku Klux Klan in the US. It's probably even worse, so to self identify as Brahmin is so problematic.

Mudit Vyas

So yeah, you are part of the problem if you're not actively speaking out against it. Because if you're not dismantling it, then you are benefiting from it.

Jay

There’s no way around it: caste system is inherently inequitable. You can’t interpret your way out of it.

Thinesh

One of the things that Mudit recommends is reading B R Ambedkar’s The Annihilation of Caste. It’s a foundational text that was ahead of its time, so much so that it wasn’t even approved by people who were trying to dismantle caste structures at the time. However, now it has become a central text for the Dalit communities fighting for justice.

Jay

And understanding caste and its effects is definitely the first step in moving forward.

Thinesh

Many South Asians are across Critical Race Theory but are strangely silent on caste. Seeing Bharatanatym in a music video - that’s cultural appropriation, but on the flip side, many are unaware of the fact that the artform itself has been appropriated and continues to disenfranchise the community it originates from. So we all need to become caste conscious and caste needs to become a part of our vocabulary when it comes to discussing discrimination.

Jay

Intersectionality!

Thinesh

Yes Jay,. When it comes to Bharatanatyam, Nrithya says that the first step is to acknowledge the problem of caste, erasure and appropriation and stop propagating a false history.

Nrithya

But it's taken five generations for somebody like me to come and speak about this. So the amount of silencing and amount of policing that's happened should be clear from that very fact, that it's taken five generations for somebody like me. I mean, we could talk about people who danced, but all of them were always in the margins, and I still remain in the margins when I talk about these things, or when I perform. There has been one Bharatanatyam star after perhaps Balasaraswati, from the hereditary Community. And isn't it surprising that this was a community that once upon a time performed and hailed on to this rich tradition, and these were women who were repositories of this art form, but today we hardly have any women dancing from the community. And this couldn't have happened without political and social movements that... I mean, political and social aspects that have controlled women from being part of this system.

Nrithya

I wouldn't even ask for power to the originators of the art form. I would say to have a more idealistic and more positive approach towards the history, and to acknowledge the problem would be a very important step at practicing this art form, to not continue to propagate this history where you claim that you cleansed this art form, and today it is a cleansed art form and somehow the hereditary practitioners should be happy that the art form is alive, but they're not part of it. All of these problematic notions need to be acknowledged, just like in many countries, indigenous are being acknowledged. Indigenous lands are being acknowledged. Public apologies are given. There have been truth and reconciliation movements. So these are things that are very important that need to be also thought about at least in terms of Bharatanatyam that is practiced today.

Nrithya

It's important that artists strive to be vocal about issues, and also acknowledge that this is an appropriated art form. It becomes problematic when you take an appropriated platform and suddenly start talking about social issues of feminism and marginalization even, but you refuse to acknowledge this problem where hereditary performers were pushed out and disenfranchised.

Thinesh

Nrithya says that some Isai Vellalar community members have started to dance again, but that they are not given the same level of respect and are still in the margins. And now, upper-caste women even want to dress up as “Devadasis”, in effect claiming the old and new variations of the art form leaving no space for her community.

Jay

Okay, this is so much information to consume

Thinesh

so what have you learnt today?

Jay

This artform that we see a lot of South Asians performing in Australia has a more complex history and is inseparable from caste. When this artform was brought over to Australia, it was brought over with caste dynamics attached, which determines who performs it and how it’s performed.

Thinesh

so for example, how it was originally performed it was fluid and flowy, and now the focus has shifted to sharp angles and clean lines.

Jay

And the originators of this artform are often forgotten behind the veil of connecting with one’s cultural roots.

Thinesh

Which isn’t a bad thing to connect with your cultural roots, but it’s important to know how this culture came to be and who has been erased in the process.

Jay

And not only does caste have a significant influence on who does what in India, but also a significant influence on who does what in Australia.

Thinesh

You can’t simply be an ally, you have to be anti-caste.

Jay

Like anti-racist, but in caste form.

Thinesh

Thanks for that Jay.

Jay

And! As there are thousands of castes, there are so many communities within South Asia, and the term South Asia has its uses as a contrast to white people, but like any overarching group term, it has its limits. It’s always going to exclude certain communities and cultures that aren’t the dominant ones.

Thinesh

So how can we practice Bharatantyam in Australia in a way that does recognise its roots?

Nrithya

So my idea is to establish an alternate aesthetic of Bharatanatyam, which is inclusive of the problematic history of Bharatanatyam. So I would do pieces that talk about the history of this art form. Where does this art form come from? I like to do pieces from the temple traditions and court traditions. And I mention who it was composed by, who are these people? Who danced this piece? So there is humongous history in families like mine, and I wish to put forth that when I dance. And I also wish to talk about those women who are not talked about.

Nrithya

So this kind of acknowledgement can be very important. I do notice that some of these dancers today, are reading out acknowledgements. They talk about how this was the art form from hereditary families, and how they socially and politically challenged at the end of the 18th century, and we're thankful to this community for having passed on this beautiful tradition to us.

Arj

So recently I did a performance where I wanted to express acknowledge at the outset, the traditional practitioners of the art forms that we today call Bharatanatyam and Carnatic music. That we pay our respects to those practitioners who have come from before from the members of the community and those who continue to exist today. I think that kind of acknowledgment avoids the sense of Eurasia, that many people who are from those communities. I think by paying that kind of respect, some may disregard that as being lip service, but it means that we are constantly and expressively acknowledging that contribution and that will help to change the perspectives of those who live in Australia as they constantly hear those words affirmed at the beginning of every performance of Bharatanatyam or Carnatic music.

Arj

I think part of that will naturally spawn a greater awareness and interest in what this, Isai Vellalar community's contribution to the art form was. And that will hopefully garner, for example, more performance opportunities or speaking opportunities where instead of just drawing from one pool of artists that we may choose to present here in Australia, as visiting artists from India, then alongside them, we will also choose to engage with artists who come from that community proactively so that we can hear their narrative. The same way in which we would act as part of art strategy here in Australia, we actively choose to engage with first nations' artists so that we continue to recognize them, position them at the forefront of art practice here in Australia.

Nrithya

It's important that as individual artists, we all find our ways to come to terms with what's happened, everyone of us who dances it without acknowledgement of the problem is a problematic dancer. So to make it less problematic, it's important to engage in all of this, to engage in the history, to engage in the recurring problems of caste exclusion and to continue to see what's happening with the art form.

Thinesh

This episode was written and produced by me Thinesh Thillai.

Jay

With help from me Jay Ooi who also did the editing and mixing.

Thinesh

Special thanks to Priyanka, Arjunan Puveendran, Nrithya Pillai, Nithya Nagarajan, Mudit Vyas, Equality Labs and B. R. Ambedkar for the Annihilation of Caste.

Jay

And thanks to Arj and Nrithya for giving us some music to use as well as Avik Chari, and Alli Chang for the episode artwork. And special thanks to you Thinesh for putting this episode together.

Thinesh

We’d love to hear about your experience of caste in Australia, and how it impacts your practice of Baratanatyam. Leave a comment on Facebook or Instagram @shoesoffau.

Jay

And if you liked Shoes Off please subscribe we’re on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts or wherever you get your pods. Thinesh, where can people find you?

Thinesh

You can find me on Instagram @tamildaddy. Strange but political.

Jay

And if you know anyone who practices Baratanatyam, please share this episode with them.

Thinesh

Peace out!

Jay

Peace out!